Odd oil leak..

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Odd oil leak..
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, March 07, 2015 - 12:00 pm:

Ok, It isn't odd to find oil leaks on a model T, but this one puzzles me?

Since the first week or so that I started this engine I've noticed a puddle of oil around the nut between spark plug #3 and #4. I've removed it multiple times, but every time I open the hood after it has been run it's back? But never any significant amount of oil no matter how long I wait until I clean it off...?

First I thought it came from the oil can on the firewall.. Maybe the vibration made the full oil can throw drops since it sits at a slight angle in its accessory holder? Naw, the oil puddle comes even with the oil can in the tool box.. And with the engine hot and running at idle, the oil puddle looks like it's boiling..

Well, nothing to wait for, driving season is getting closer, I removed the head.

only head

head

inside the engine

And there doesn't seems to be anything odd with the 0.100" milled Prus head or the copper head gasket I sprayed with aluminum paint for sealing.. Phew :-)
But there is some oil visible down in the threaded hole where the oil came.
I use Model A studs to get a better clamping with less risk to ruin the block threads. I suppose some kind of sealant on this stud will suffice, but I'd like to ask if anyone has seen this kind of leak before? And if so, what did you do?

(Message edited by Roger K on March 07, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, March 07, 2015 - 12:18 pm:

Check from the bolt hole to the cylinder for cracks.

Use Indian Head gasket cement on the end of the stud.

Aluminum paint is not gasket cement, use indian head on that also.

Your pistons are pumping oil yet, and the gasket is not holding, and the rear cylinder is pushing oil up around the head stud.You can see where it has gathered.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, March 07, 2015 - 12:21 pm:

Looks like you are getting a little leakage on the head gasket adjacent to the bolt. I would use copper coat spray gasket sealer rather then spry paint what installing a new gasket. Paint is designed for painting and gasket sealer is designed for sealing gaskets.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Saturday, March 07, 2015 - 12:49 pm:

Roger,
Herm is right by using Head Gasket cement. I not only use it on the bolts but also around all the water holes.
I don't think you have only an oil leak problem but I think you head gasket is leaking water too.
Your pistons and the head is clean to metal that I have seen before with blown head gaskets.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, March 07, 2015 - 01:55 pm:

No visible cracks in the cylinders and no visible crack in the valve galley. It's an october '26 (27 model year) engine, and I've heard about their tendency to develop cracks, but I think it would be odd if there's a crack all the way down to the crank case? But where does the oil come from? Doesn't look like it was contaminated in the combustion chamber, more like directly from the valve galley or the crank case.

Sure a proper gasket seal made for head gaskets is better, will use next time, I've just heard so many used paint back in the old days with success so I wanted to try old style when I mounted the head :-)

Lots of carbon for just about 500 miles of driving, so I guess I can screw in the carb adjustment even more. Maybe the head gasket leaked some water? Never noticed, and no visible damage to the gasket.

Thanks for all suggestions and comments :-)

(Message edited by Roger K on March 07, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Saturday, March 07, 2015 - 03:01 pm:

Roger,

Aside from what oil may have passed by the rings, I believe that what you're seeing really isn't oil but carbon mixed with maybe a bit of coolant. Your head gasket did not seal properly. As Herm pointed out, aluminum paint is not head gasket sealant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, March 07, 2015 - 03:54 pm:

I respectfully disagree Jerry, it's crank case oil, no question about that when touching, smelling and looking at it. I've used tap water as coolant until now, wanted to wait until everything was tried out & tight until I change to an antifreeze mix.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Thum on Saturday, March 07, 2015 - 06:40 pm:

I have found that with my oil can holder, that is I have even 1 drop of oil in it, it will vibrate out and on the engine and hood. Mine is for looks only.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, March 07, 2015 - 07:04 pm:

No visible cracks in the cylinders and no visible crack in the valve galley. It's an october '26 (27 model year) engine, and I've heard about their tendency to develop cracks, but I think it would be odd if there's a crack all the way down to the crank case? But where does the oil come from? Doesn't look like it was contaminated in the combustion chamber, more like directly from the valve galley or the crank case."END QUOTE"

Roger, to get oil from a crack, you would only have to have a crack go down in a cylinder about 1/2 inch, and if it was cracked to the bolt hole, the compression would push the oil out.

Hopefully, you don't have a crack, just something to look for.

The gasket its self is probably what failed, but you don't want to take it apart again.

Always put the gasket cement on all the gasket, both sides.

Last, you can see where the oil residue is piling up to go through, or underneath the gasket.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Saturday, March 07, 2015 - 07:10 pm:

This probably is nothing but when I look at the gasket area between #3&4 it looks different than the rest of the gasket---like maybe it was not compressed as much. Could it be that either the block or the head are not flat?

Also it would be a good idea to be sure the studs and nuts are fresh so you don't get fooled on your clamping force/ or torque? Sometimes used studs and nuts can give the correct torque but not produce the desired clamping force.

Also that seems like a lot of oil and carbon build-up for only 500miles. Just wondering if new rings were installed--we're cylinders properly cross hatched honed? --what about the ring end gap? I would follow the advice of others to use a good gasket sealer and also seal the studs to the block. I think the root cause of your problem is sealing---the head gasket is not able to do it's job for some reason. Good luck, Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Saturday, March 07, 2015 - 09:52 pm:

It seems to me that the only place pressurized oil could exist in a stock T engine, is on top of a piston under compression. I would bet you have oil passing the rings, past the gasket, and squeezing up the stud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nigel Hugo on Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 10:57 am:

Roger, if you have removed 0.100" from the head you may require more torque to clamp the gasket enough to seal it. Also, I have had a similar problem with these patterned copper head gaskets. If you can get any Hylomar gasket compound just use it. Are the washers under the nuts hard or soft, if they aren't hard then they well squeeze, see ARP adivce particularly if it is an alloy head you are using.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 11:26 am:

Am I the only one noticing that there is a GRAPHITE HEAD GASKET on his cylinder head AND a COPPER HEAD GASKET on his block.

I've known of some engine re-builders who will put on 2 head gaskets when they realize they milled too much material off the block or head.

2 Head gaskets WOULD have the tendency to produce "ODD" leaks...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 11:42 am:

Ok, I'll buy some gasket sealing (what ever is the best available here), check the flatness of the head again and seal the studs plus a new head gasket. The pistons and rings were new in properly bored and hatched cylinders, but the hatch marks are gone now. I filed the ring gaps a bit large, maybe they've grown even larger with my speeding during these 500 miles - well, better too large tolerances than seizing and scored cylinders. The washers were supplied with the head. What's ARP advice, Nigel?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 11:46 am:

No Adam, there's no head gasket on the head in the photo. The marks are from the alu paint on the copper head gasket that's been in contact with the head.

I think I've read graphite head gaskets can't be used with alu heads?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 03:59 pm:

Roger - just across thge Sound:
http://www.veterandele.dk/shop/loctite-5923-fly-3162p.html

or

http://www.veterandele.dk/shop/loctite-2923-fly-3163p.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 03:59 pm:

Roger - just across the Sound:
http://www.veterandele.dk/shop/loctite-5923-fly-3162p.html

or

http://www.veterandele.dk/shop/loctite-2923-fly-3163p.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 04:01 pm:

Roger, when you get everything all cleaned up real nice, you could try placing the head on the block without a head gasket and look for a gap using a light on the opposite side or use feeler Gage's---just a suggestion for you to consider. Regards, Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 05:11 pm:

Sure, will check flatness, Joe.
Thanks Michael, already have the ones or similar to what you show - Loctite is great stuff, have just ordered this one for the head gasket - a friend have had success using it both on T & A's:

loctite

The washers I've used may have been rust free washers supplied from Snyder's together with the studs or the washers supplied with the head, hard to tell, but when checking them closer I saw they had marks from the nuts, so they weren't hard enough. I've ordered properly hardened washers too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 05:52 pm:

Roger,
Since the head has been milled, are you sure the head bolts are not too long? If you lay the head on the block without the head gasket, you should be able to screw the head bolts all the way down. That leaves the thickness of the gasket as a comfort margin. If the head bolts are bottoming out in the holes you are going to have problems.
Erik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, March 08, 2015 - 06:39 pm:

Erik, I'm using Model A studs and I had a kind of opposite problem since the Model A ignition clamp studs for april '28-march '29 I bought were a tad too short, so instead I had to spot face around the bolt holes with an end mill to get the nuts (almost) all the way onto the studs. Plenty of thread left to tighten. Next time I'll try the longer january - april '28 studs.


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