Windshield Rubber Part 2

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Windshield Rubber Part 2
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Thursday, March 12, 2015 - 01:28 pm:

Thread's getting rather long so let's continue this subject here:

Looking into my 4/1/16 Ford Price List of Parts, there is NO entry for ANY windshield parts ? In my 3/1/20 List, there is again no part numbers for ANY w.s. hinge prior to 1917 BUT it lists w.s. hinge for '17 - '20 as having a "left" & "right" part number including different part numbers for upper & lower - both sides.

I've also come to the conclusion that the '15 - '16 w.s. hinge was merely reversed to gain the top glass offset. Our '14 w.s. hinges, although peculiar to '14 only, have no offset but are equal in length and one is reversed so either side fits the other and the glass is flat, top & bottom.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, March 12, 2015 - 01:39 pm:

Found some more pics in this 2005 thread:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/31911.html

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Thursday, March 12, 2015 - 02:17 pm:

Interesting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Thursday, March 12, 2015 - 02:58 pm:

I'm just going to keep going until someone tells me to stop...haha

Keep in mind that getting these pictures, bad as they are is a near Herculean fete as the cars are still put away for the winter. In these pics, the cars are parked side by side with two inches between running boards and I've been standing with left leg on the Hack running board and right leg on the '15 roadster after shimmying in between and making sure the belly doesn't get stuck :-) The passenger side of the '15 was pushed up against the wall for the winter, so no pictures there until the thaw. So far, success in not getting the belly stuck...

I was taught (maybe right/maybe wrong) that a true 15 windshield folded full 180 would produce two glasses with their edge at the same height. I was also told that the '16's and later windshield will NOT supposedly do this and winds up with offset edges in elevation when folded full.

Lore or fact? I dunno, but these are obviously the same height!



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, March 12, 2015 - 03:51 pm:

In George's picture the top and bottom caps both have the offset. I could buy new ones to replace my wrong ones and the rust-damaged one, but I'll shop for originals first.

If you're just joining this discussion, here's Part 1:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/523785.html?1426186215


(Message edited by steve_jelf_parkerfield_ks on March 12, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Thursday, March 12, 2015 - 04:08 pm:

Here's a couple photos - first of a set of '14 only - notice the double bump detents and they do not stop at a vertical position due to the flat firewall and slope of the bottom half of the w.s.
There is no right or left - one is just reversed.

Second is what I believe to be '15 - '16 hinges with the "correct" nuts. It appears as though one is just reversed to create the offset ????



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Thursday, March 12, 2015 - 04:10 pm:

To add to the discussion, our '14 was restored from an original car and that's how the w.s. hinges are installed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Thursday, March 12, 2015 - 07:27 pm:

Steve T. that makes sense. If the hinges were actually lefts and rights as I was thinking in the first post (link in Steve's post above) then they would bind when you tried to change the windshield position because both would be trying to spread outward or inwards. I bet I just need to try assembling them differently.

Those nuts are the early ones, the 1916 - 17 have the same nut as the cowl lamp I think.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Thursday, March 12, 2015 - 07:38 pm:

On the other hand Hap's photo of the part catalog shows left and right assemblies with four different part numbers for the hinge halves........



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Thursday, March 12, 2015 - 08:43 pm:

I saw that also, Royce - makes one wonder, WTF ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Thursday, March 12, 2015 - 09:25 pm:

but!!..as hap pointed out in that post, many things are reversible. how about this theory, the guy on the line assembling windshield frames has a basket full of hinges and he reaches out and grabs one every 30 seconds and doesnt look and doesnt care if they interchange. i like erik j's statement that it would be convenient if the top hooker uppers didnt move with the windshild, but if henry was into convenience he would have given us a drivers door. i can not explain why ford would put a different part number on a mirror image reversible part, but theres alot we can not explain even after 100 plus years of people trying


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, March 12, 2015 - 11:27 pm:

The brackets in Royce's photo are not mirror images, there is a left and right. The offset is on the outer piece on one side and the inner on the other.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Thursday, March 12, 2015 - 11:39 pm:

i disagree, the shadow on the right hinge is covering what would be the telling fact. those look like the same part to me, just flipped upside down. again, outside hinge, mounting holes down, or south, and pivot point west, or left. like every one we've seen so far, except for the ford parts list.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, March 13, 2015 - 01:17 am:

Looking at the parts book page, I think 7805X and 7804X go together to make 7819X, which goes on the driver's (left) side of the car, and 7807X and 7806X go together to make 7818X, which goes on the passenger (right) side. BUT are 7805X and 7806X the same part? Are 7807X and 7804X the same part? We report, you decide.

..........
Seeing the pictures side by side and turned the same way, they look like four different parts to me.

If everybody who has some of these 15-16 hinges will bring them to Chickasha next week, maybe we can compare the actual items and sort out what's what.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Friday, March 13, 2015 - 07:09 am:

I will have two left assemblies 7819X. And a pile of other junk to sell!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, March 13, 2015 - 07:16 am:

Definitely four different parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Friday, March 13, 2015 - 07:36 am:

Steve,

They are 4 different parts...but they don't match up the way you and others are now probably thinking they do...

The upper left 'caps' that assembly and the lower right 'caps' that assembly, and if it racks a bit on raising and lowering from detent to detent, I guess it does, I know it does.


7804X and 7805X go together to make up 7818X Assembly...and 7806X and 7807X go together to make 7819X assembly...

Not a guess on my part...the July 1917 parts book listing shows unique 1915/1916 parts and the 1917+ parts. I just matched up the number to the nomenclature....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Friday, March 13, 2015 - 07:39 am:

gosh dang it...

I said it wrong! 04/05 = 19 Assembly 06/07 = 18 Assembly


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Friday, March 13, 2015 - 12:08 pm:

So - following the illustrations in the parts list, the left upper hinge part (7805X) is the heavier piece with the cup and the right lower piece (7806X) is also the heavier piece with the cup - wouldn't that accomplish the same configuration if one just reversed one assembly as I displayed in my photos above ????

Now I'm really confused !!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, March 13, 2015 - 12:15 pm:

Great discussion and it appears to be coming to the same conclusion as the 2005 discussion Mark pointed out which is located at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/31911.html I.e. that someone sometime had mixed the windshield hinge parts up and while they had an equal length windshield hinge, they did not have a correct 1915-mid1917 one but one that was not offset correctly. I believe that can be accomplished in more than one way – and probably even by mixing all the early 1915- mid 1917 style parts but assembling them incorrectly. Note if the conclusion was different, that would have been helpful also as we are always looking for corrections or additional ways things may have been done.

George – thank you for adding the “left upper” etc. on the parts diagram. That is a very helpful addition.

A couple of points to add and questions for possible additional follow-up:

First, yes – Ford did try to make new parts utilize as many of the old style parts as practical and also to be able to be used on the early cars when possible. That is one reason you can take a pair of 1927 wooden front wheels and they will fit and function on any 1906 Model N, R, S, SR, or T front spindle (needs a slightly thinner washer to make it fit easily (or take a little off the original washer or nut).

Second, yes – Ford parts will often fit more than one way or one location. In some cases like the small out roller bearings for the front wheels 1906-non-demountables into the 1920s the roller bearing will fit either left or right wheels it doesn’t matter. That same small roller bearing also fits the 1911ish-1921ish drive shaft bearings.

Third, yes – Ford parts will often fit more than one way or location and things assemble fine but don’t function properly. There have been several and there will be several more people in the future who will reassemble their rear axle and find that they have two speeds in reverse and only one slow speed forward. And in that case there is no indication from binging etc. that it is installed incorrectly. And if the front spring perches are swapped – it can cause negative caster on the front wheels and the driver to loose control of the car. And the windshield hinges fall into the same group – you can easily mix them up incorrectly.



So we see from the above it was the lower hinge parts that were changed and the other parts continued to be used. Note – that does not mean that the part looked exactly the same. I.e. the raised portion/groove that Royce highlighted on the 1915 hinges on the photo he posted that is shown again below on the left upper hinge part number 7805X.



That part number was used 1915-1922. But somewhere along the way the extra groove disappeared. When only minor changes were made to a part and it would still work as before the part number was not updated with a suffix. The minor change would be noted on the change card and/or possibly on the factory drawing.

In this case Royce offered that it maybe a 1915 only part. And he could be correct. Or as we look at additional information we may find that it appears they may have been used possibly through Apr-ish 1917. Below is a cropped picture from Shorpy photo of a black radiator touring (original at: http://www.shorpy.com/node/16911 discussed on the MTFCA forum at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/419942.html?1391168676 ). Note it appears to have that style equal length hinge with the raised groove.



But the photo was taken in 1922 so the windshield hinges may have been replaced sometime in the previous 5 years. [Note this also answers the original question of where should the accessory windshield rubber piece go – on the lower windshield if you are replicating the Seeger’s 1917 which is the Ford in the photo. ]

I tried to see if I could or could not see the groove on the prototype 1917 touring on page 253 of Bruce’s book – but as I zoomed in I saw dots and not clarity. So I don’t know which way that one is.

I zoomed in on the photo on page 229 of Bruce's book. It shows a late 1916 (brass radiator but with metal end caps on the seat arms). I could not tell for sure if it did or did not have the groove -- but I suspect it does not have one.

So I would ask if anyone has additional photos or information to help determine when the “groove” on the lower left windshield hinge part # 7805X disappeared as well as on the other side and how much overlap was there when both the “grooved” style and plain style were used? And of course perhaps was a matter of manufacturer rather than just date?

There is always more to learn. Thank you all for sharing and adding to our data and helping us sort through it to add to our understanding.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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