have block with number 6223204 what month and year please

Here's a link to the table in the MTFCA Encyclopedia:

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm

The online encyclopedia tells you the month and year. The disk version pins it down to the day. Yours is Friday, July 7, 1922. It's one of 5,458 engines made that day.

Just a reminder -- it was one of 5,458 serial numbers recorded that day in the engine production log. If the engine was assembled at one of the branch plants it would have been assembled later. And if the engine was assembled at the main plant and shipped to a branch plant to be placed in a car -- the car would have been assembled after that date.

For a more detailed explanation with references please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/517565.html?1423792688

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

So at the risk of a little "thread wander", I have a question.
The '26-7 cars have frame numbers which matched the engine number. Was the frame number stamped to match the engine number? OR?

Les,

1. I'm 99.99% sure that Ford USA stamped the engines when they were assembled as a power plant (i.e. engine and transmission, head, hogshead). And that once the engine was placed into the frame in the later years, the frame was then stamped with the engine number. Additional details are provided below.

2. From “Ford Methods and Ford Shops” published in 1915 but it includes material originally published in 1914 or even as early as late 1913. On page 75 we have operation # 84 one man 68 seconds, listed as: Operation 84. Paint the motor and remove it from the end of the assembly line to a small wooden stand on rollers. Below is the picture with operation #84



On the next page 76 we have the following picture and label:




The caption reads: The man at the left is numbering the motor. The man at the right is trying the standard starting crank to see that it is right for its engagement with the crank shaft
These operations are performed as the motor stands on the small truck

The phrase in the caption above is “THE MAN AT THE LEFT IS NUMBERING THE MOTOR.” Note I don’t see a man with a hammer and a punch in the photo – but I may have missed it. But I do believe the caption is correct.

I read and searched for other information on engine serial numbers or motor numbers etc. From every thing I have seen so far, the engines were stamped then, and the tag that eventually would go with the car (Form 386 Motor Assembly Record see page 79) was wired (attached) to one of the transmission pedals until the motor (I like the word engine but Ford used the term motor) was put in the chassis and then the Form 386 was attached to the steering wheel (see page 88). Reading before and after that area I did not find any information to indicate the Motor Number (engine serial number) was stamped onto the block after the engine was placed in the chassis. Also on page 88 they did note that the numbers (car, motor, and body) are not the same for a given car.

3. On page 564 of Bruce McCalley’s “The Model T Ford”, his electronic Encyclopedia on his new CD and also in his on-line encyclopedia at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc24.htm he states:

MAR 18, 1924 Letter from Chicago Branch
"We hear stories that some salesmen are telling their customers to be sure and look at the motor number of any car when they buy in order to be sure they get a late motor number. These particular salesmen are just making a lot of trouble for themselves because at the new plant we have hundreds of motors that have been standing there for thirty days or more and will be going into the cars in the course of production. This means that all dealers will receive motor numbers from the Burnham plant that will be considerably lower in number than those motors received from the Chicago plant so just stop your salesmen making any remarks at all about motor numbers because in so doing they are going to make a lot of trouble for you when we start shipping from the new plant."
A.W.L. Gilpin
Branch Manager
P.S. In correspondence the old Ford plant in Chicago is referred to as the Chicago plant and the new plant is referred to as the Burnham plant because it is near the Burnham railroad yards.

Which indicates those motors (engines) had serial numbers already stamped on them when they were stored.

4. On page 501 of Bruce McCalley’s “The Model T Ford” we see:

In paragraph one he writes : “The serial (engine numbers listed here are taken directly from the daily log books of the engine assembly department of the Ford Motor Company. These original books are completer from 1915 until the end of Model T Engine production in 1941.”

In paragraph four same page 501 he describes how blocks of engine numbers were also shipped to the different assembly plants. Those numbers are indicated in some places and not in others. But the date for those numbers is the date the numbers were shipped off and probably not the date the engine was assembled.

In paragraph five (last paragraph same page 501) he says: “The author cannot stress too strongly that care must be used when attempting to accurately date a car by its engine number. Remember that the dates shown are those when the engine assembly was completed, not the car, or the date a block of engine number records were shipped to another assembly plant. Further more, {caps added by Hap) Ford ONLY STAMPED A SERIAL NUMBER ON A COMPLETED ENGINE (ENGINE, TRANSMISSION, PAN, HEAD, ETC.) during the Model T era, not on a bare block or a “short block” which was destined for the replacement market.

5. On page 533 of his book, “The Model T Ford” Bruce has,

Dec 1925 engine production records:
Dec 5, 1925: 12,8555,160 to 12,863,164 were produced. That would indicate those engines were stamped at that time (or the numbers were shipped to a plant). Otherwise they would just list the number of engines produces because they would not have serial numbers.

6. From: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/C-D.htm#Chassis1 Bruce states: under
FRAME NUMBERS
Accession 94. Walter Fishleigh files.
“Motor number was first placed on frame side member R.H. on Dec. 12, 1925. Motor No. 12,861,044. Information obtained from Mr. Burns, Final Assy., Highland Park.”

7. I believe (but I don’t know for sure) that Mr. Walter Fishleigh would have looked at the motor number of the motor (either a tag with that number written on it or perhaps the number on the actual block) installed in the frame and then stamped that same number on the frame. I think it was possible for an engine to be produced and installed on the same day – but we know there were also times (some listed above) that there was a delay.

8. I understand this won’t solve world peace or world hunger – but I would like to know more if anyone has additional information related to it.

9. And on page 536 of Bruce McCalley’s book “Model T Ford” under the engine serial number records there is a note on May 25, 1927. It says, “14,999,999 to 14,000,001) 3 held out for next day” Which indicates that they were not in the chassis yet.

9.a. Stern’s “Tin Lizzie” on page 117 has a picture of engine #15,000,000 along with 8 men standing behind it. On page 116 the caption for that picture reads, “Opposite are the officials and employee s of the company who each stamped one digit of the motor number on the engine block. ….[names were listed … Henry was not one of them]. But the engine was NOT in a car frame.

9.b. Stern’s “Tin Lizzie” on page 116 shows the 15,000,000 Model T Ford coming off the assembly line. Caption reads “May 26, 1927” one day after the engines were held out of the normal production flow.

9.c. There is also a picture of Henry Ford stamping #1 on the first Model A Ford engine on Oct 20, 1927. It does not appear to be in a car frame either – but rather a test stand with a coolant hose running off the inlet side and the transmission attached as an assembly also.

10. Please sea also Trent’s excellent posting at: Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 10:39 pm http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/8925.html

11. Thanks to all for posting – there is so much more to learn. And as that story of the blind men and the elephant teaches us, we all have a slightly different view of the “Elephant” we can offer and we can all learn more about our cars, hobby, and friends.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

Hap,

Your comment about the second photo you posted above "I don't see a man with a hammer....but I believe the caption is correct"

If you look directly across the engine from the fellow who has the crank in his hand the other fellow on the other side has a hammer and is hunched over a bit. The engine is at a slight angle and it looks to me if he is stamping the numbers. My thoughts on the writers caption is his left and rights are addressing each engine, (one man on the right side of the engine and one on the left side), and not the two men in the foreground.

A question on the upper photo caption operation #84. Am I understanding that the engine painter has only one minute and eight seconds to paint the engine and place it on a stand?

Dennis,

I agree that the man that is hunched/bent over he could be stamping the serial number -- he is in the correct location to do that. But so far I have not seen a hammer. But I still believe the caption is correct -- that is what he does.







And yes -- they painted the engine that quickly. They had cars to get out the door. And it was only a thin film -- not a great paint job.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

My 'new' engine for my 1926 Coupe has had its engine number ground away.
It is a 26/27 motor - it has the hogshead bolt lugs.
It has 4 K D cast on the right side below cylinders 3 and 4. Does anyone know if it can be dated from this?
(I know that Canadian motors had a code similar to this.)

i don't see a hammer, but what is the odd tool on top of the head???

Thanks Hap. I have mistaken the pipe on top of the engine for a hammer handle.
Be sure to mark this date and time down because it is the first time in history I was ever wrong!

here is what i think i see,the man bent over is adjusting the clutch on the other motor,the tool on top of the other motor is a socket wrench. just below the water neck on the motor on the left i see another wrench going to the the clutch adjusting nut. i know i might be nuts. charley

Charley,

I do not recognize what the tool on top of the cylinder head is for. I looked in Bruce's book where he has several tools shown on pages 596, 598, 602 etc. While there are several "T" shaped tools none of them appear to have the same size shaft as the bottom socket. Perhaps someone else will recognize that tool.

Chris,

Rather than hi-jack the original thread and so we can have a subject a little closer to your question I have started a new thread titled: “What casting date code did Cork Ireland / Ford of England have?” That thread is located at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/525842.html?1426468883 If anyone has information concerning Chris’ question about the casting date code for the 1926-27 style blocks used in Ford of England cars please post that there.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off