Hand Crank Alignment

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Hand Crank Alignment
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Foye on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 12:11 am:

Has anyone had the problem of the hand crank and ratchet not lining up with the crank pulley pin? How do you fix this? Came back from the engine builder this way. Pictures show alignment issues when the ratchet is connected to the hand crank and when it is fit correctly on the pulley and pin while away from the hand crank. I'm at a loss what to do here.





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender Tulsa Oklahoma on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 12:32 am:

ouch looks like the pan wasn't straighten during rebuild or engine was drop or bumped on the nose.

Contact the engine builder and see if the pan was straighten on a pan jig.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 12:40 am:

It wasn't, or there would be no problem!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 12:57 am:

Seems to me like the crankshaft just about has to be where it belongs in relation to the engine block with the main bearing caps all tightened up, no matter what condition the pan is in, and it would take one heck of "bump" to bend anything on the "nose" without that being very plainly visible. And if that front "saddle" or whatever you call it in the front engine mount is properly in place on the front crossmember, I'd be more inclined to believe that either one or both of the pan "ears" (rear engine mounts) are bent. Or, (perish the thought) perhaps the frame is bent or somehow "out of whack". I'd loosen the mounting bolts that bolt the pan ears to the frame and see how things line up then.

Just sort of "thinking out loud" here,...hope this
helps,.....harold

P.S. Actually, in thinking more about it, the pan ears really ARE a lot more prone to being accidently bent (from a "bump") than anything else.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 01:00 am:

I guess I probably should have said that all of what I said above is contingent upon the pan having been straightened.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 01:03 am:

......and I shouldn't have said "no matter what condition the pan is in".

Too late, too tired, going to bed!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 01:15 am:

Probably not a lot of good news here. We have seen a lot of pans bent in the front by running into something with the crank handle. It does not bode well for the rest of the pan alignment. The aluminum pulley is larger in diameter where it rides on the crankshaft and can hang up on the crank ratchet. If you were using a stock steel pulley before the rebuild, it may explain why you are having trouble now. Ask your engine builder about their pan straightening process. If you get zero for an answer you better pull the engine out and get it done. I'll do it at no charge if you can get the pan to me. Protect your investment with a straight pan.
Erik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 04:23 am:

I believe that third picture should be like this:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 07:04 am:

Hey Matt - can you back up and take some more pictures with a bit wider perspective? It'd help if we could see a bit more of the car.

It looks from here like the crank handle is too low (or the engine is too high) going to the pulley as opposed to being off right or left. I'd break out a straight edge and make sure that your front cross member is really straight. If the pan was straightened at the rebuilders - that might be your clue that the frame isn't quite right.

I can't really say from the photo but that middle one you posted almost looks like the front cross member is twisted in the center - which would push the crank handle down. It's not a ton, but enough that it's ruining your alignment. If you imagine that the front edge of the frame there's a vertical plane like when the radiator is in place, I think your crank handle would be further away at the bottom and closer that the top. If so, that's your problem. That shaft should be level. Take a picture of the front of the car standing off to the side (parallel to front plane of the radiator.

I could be totally wrong. Like I said it's hard to come to any conclusions with just these pictures. Let us know what you figure out!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Foye on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 09:22 am:

The block was a NOS, never used, leftover from ford. no serial numbers. The pan was one of two I send out to use the better of the 2. The frame on the car is fine. attached is a picture from the summer with the dog with the old engine and pan. Someone said "protect your investment" - what will happen if I use the starter to start and run this as is? Not that I want the only model t out there you can't hand crank (particularly an early one). I am pretty sick right now thinking about this problem. A ton of work and ton of money...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 09:28 am:

Looking at it some more Matt - I would remove the 2 bolts that hold the nose in place, then put as fat a rod as you can fit through that crank handle bushing, then use a pipe or whatever for leverage and just bend the nose up that fraction of an inch you need. You may have to bend it a touch further so that it'll settle back to be lined up correctly, but I don't think it'll take much. That's a beautiful car. You are right with that last picture that it doesn't look like front cross member is tweaked at all.

Someone else may be able to advise differently or probably better, but this looks like it just needs a little bit of muscled "adjusting" and you'll be just fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 09:33 am:

Plus if you change that repro alu pulley to an original Ford pulley (they're not hard to find) then you won't need to adjust much at all for the ratchet to work, I think.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 10:09 am:

All the pictures of the pulley are taken at too much of an angle to show clearly the misalignment. Getting the camera down near the plane of the hand crank would probably show it better. But from the third picture I'm guessing that the ratchet is too low to center in the pulley. I agree with Seth that that could be caused by a twisted cross member. But since everything lined up OK before, that's probably not the problem. His other suggestion seems more likely to me, that the front of the pan is slightly bent, twisting the alignment of the bushing down in back. If that's the case, the idea of loosening the cap and bending with a bar to align the thing makes sense to me. If I'm guessing right about the ratchet being too low, then I would put a long bar into the bushing from the front and push it down to twist the rear side upward until it aligns with the crank shaft. As for using the correct Ford pulley or the current one, I think that's only a matter of taste if the bushing is aligned properly. If it is, either one should be mechanically OK.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 10:26 am:

You might be able to ream out the pan nose bushing. Its possible with a worn bushing the crank could line up and when the bushing was replaced by the engine builder all the play was removed and your crank no longer lined up.

If the bushing is bronze then it would easier to fix than if it were steel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 10:28 am:

Steve, as Erik wrote higher up, the repro pulley is thicker around the crank (where the ratchet goes in) than the original pulley, giving less tolerance for misalignment. But if bending with a 3/4" bar in the bushing works, then getting it "just right" would probably be possible - but the less bending needed, the better :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 10:42 am:

Agreed. We don't know how bad the misalignment is. It may need just a little tweak, or a lot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 10:50 am:

I may be mistaken, but in Matt's first picture it looks like he has the ratchet end disconnected from the crank handle and placed on the pulley pin. Then he pushed in the crank handle in, and it looks like the end of the crank handle has to come up about half the diameter and a little bit to the left.

Should be doable with a large bar inserted into the pan bearing. I would loosen the bolts on the front mount cap a lot before twisting to give the front of the pan room to twist the required amount. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 11:08 am:

Do not ream the bushing! Best fix would be to pull the engine and take the crankcase to someone with a jig. But if everything else is straight, and you can pretty well determine whether it is, by removing the 4th main at the back of the engine and turning the crankshaft one quarter turn and see how the 4th main fits. Put in the two bottom bolts at the bottom of the crankcase so that you can slide the 4th main in and out. Turn the crankshaft by 1/4 turns and the 4th main should slide easily. You can also turn the 4th main to see if it slides easily. when it is upside down. If nothing binds in the 4th main, you can then do as Seth has suggested. Jack up the front of the engine enough to clear the mount and bend slightly to line up the crank.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 11:58 am:

Seth has a fix. Better to try that way first than pull the engine. The snout of the pan likely off. So bend it with a touch of torch to heat only the snout. At that end if the pan the heat won't affect the solder dam at the block.

With the snout free of the front frame clip (might have to remove the clip)place a bar into the snout bushing and pry the snout back in alignment. Support the oil dipper pan firmly under the motor while bending. May have to use jack support if needed to lift the snout free of the chassis enough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 12:23 pm:

Take the pan off as Norman said, your pan is bent.

You will never get it straight on the motor with out stressing the pan, some where else.

Of all the pans we have aligned, I have only had one the the front didn't need moved to align the crank, with the center of the crankshaft.

Many a Model T motors have been taken out of cars, with out a lift, and dropped on there pan nose, to get put out of alignment, and rolled over on there sides to bend there arms.

The nose should have a new bushing, and you have to heat them, and still the nose is hard to move.

The frame has nothing to do with the crank hole being out of alignment with the crank. In this case, one does not effect the other, it is just plain bent.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Leonard J Evansic on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 12:48 pm:

Take the plugs out. Jack up one rear wheel, and have someone turn the crank slowly, and see or feel where the problem is.--Len


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Foye on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 06:45 pm:

Here are some more pictures. I pushed, pulled, tugged, twisted, and tried everything. The bottom line is the pan is bent and too far bent to fix in the car. What absolutely kills me is that I overpaid for the first engine ($3K), to find it had problems. I send many new parts and had another $7K into getting my dream engine from a well recommended builder. add another $1k or so for alternator, starter, NH, and we're up to $11K for a model t engine that I can't crank with out another full teardown of my car. I'm sickened.
I do appreciate all the help, tips and pointers to try getting this right, but I spend the day with jacks, bars, and engine lifts and nothing moved. It's so far out of center, even if it did move, it would tear or crack the metal before getting in the right spot. I don't want to name the builder, but there are over a thousand miles between us, so getting him to honor it, isn't an option. He did say he put it on a "KRW jig" Thanks for the help. I do appreciate it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 06:56 pm:

I've straightened similar maladjustments in the car by using a torch & jacks. From your latest photo (on left), it doesn't appear to be beyond fixing. Might take some thoughtful "massaging" with heat accompanied by some grinding out of the crank ratchet & aluminum pulley or both.

If the rebuilder stated "he put it on a KRW jig", it doesn't necessarily means he has the knowledge to use it or straightened it for that matter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 07:29 pm:

Replace that bushing with a brass slug. Get your alignment with a straight edge and drill it out. A little play won't hurt anything. You'll have to do plenty of fiddeling but it beats pulling the engine apart. Again. Especially if it's running OK. Never messed with that bushing and I'm guessing it doesn't just "pop out" with the top cap off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 07:47 pm:

I'm with Charlie on this one, even a slightly worn crank handle or over size the bush some, a bit of play wont bother anything as long as the spring is good. You would wont to be really keen to undo all that work just to have a tight crank bush.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 07:57 pm:

Would it be possible to loosen up those four bolts and see if you could adjust it that way? Is that part separate from the cross-member?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 08:15 pm:

Im with the others who say remove the pan, have it straightened. I see no good outcome as to trying to do it in the car and "hope for the best" In my personal opinion the two major points to be correct on a T engine are, all three mains and "fourth main" in "perfect alignment", and the pan straight. Most other things can be "lived with" but those two points are the "life of your engine" good luck with the project, submitted with respect, Donnie Brown ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 08:22 pm:

It's possible your builder has a KRW jig but is missing the parts to check the crank bushing alignment. It could be your pan may be flat enough to use and just deal with the crank issue however you can, but you shouldn't have to deal with that after spending that kind of money. I wish you were closer, I would fix that pan for you.
Erik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 08:32 pm:

Shim the bushing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Foye on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 08:49 pm:

I'm assuming the front mount is the only part that's bent. He said he put it on a krw jig. Others have used this builder and have excellent reviews. What happens if the pan isn't straight the rest of the way? What if the ears are bent? I assume oil leaks, but what does it do to the drivetrain? The crank and transmission hang from the block, not the pan. I would like help understanding the comments above it being critical to having a straight pan. Looking for explanation and clarification so I'll have something else to worry about! Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 09:12 pm:

Matt - For a good explanation watch this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PCUIal3HVNY


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 09:17 pm:

Matt,
Although the crankshaft and transmission "hang from the block" The 4th main hangs from the hogs head and the crankcase. If the crankcase is bent, it will put a bind on the rear end of the crankshaft. Depending on the situation, it could lead to a broken crankshaft. If the 4th main is not in alignment, every rotation will flex the crankshaft until finally it breaks from metal fatigue. That's the reason I posted what I did concerning the alignment of the 4th main.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Mazza, north adams ma on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 09:18 pm:

Have you talked to the person who did your work for ideas?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 09:21 pm:

To add to what I posted above, the early T's up until the 1926 model had only the crankcase to support the hogs head (transmission cover). So it is very easy to have the 4th main out of alignment if the crankcase is bent. Only on the 26-27 engine was the hogs head bolted to the block, which makes that alignment less likely to be a problem.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Foye on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 09:57 pm:

Mike - Great video. 7-8 minute mark shows the reason for alignment. My builder said he used this exact model of jig. 23:30 minute mark shows the hand crank lining up to the center of the crank. He obviously didn't do this step, and may have missed other steps.

David - He said bend it, machine the pulley, ream the sleeve, etc. not good.

Norman - The engine has 1913 pedals, but is a 26/27 NOS block and hogs head. I wanted the strength but also the look of the early pedals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 10:36 pm:

To add a "point of clarity", that is not the correct crankcase for that year of car - it should be a "narrow nose snout" c.c. and by using localized heat in the area of the snout only, it will not change the geometry of the pan arms or ball cap, IMHO - your mileage may vary.

If you are suspect of the ability of your engine man to have properly "straightened" your crankcase, perhaps you should disassemble the engine, have the c.c. inspected by a competent builder for your own piece of mind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 10:41 pm:

Reaming the sleeve at the most will only mess up the sleeve. If you don't want to do that, then buy another hand crank and turn it down to accomplish the same thing. You can then crank the car and only your hairdresser will know.

You can always pull the unit out and take it apart. I think I would "patch" the situation and put some miles on the car before I would disembowel it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 11:29 pm:

The correct narrow nose pan cannot be used with the 26/27 hogshead as Matt stated he has. It would have to be a four dip pan made for the wide brake drum. The good news is that with all the 26/27 parts you have a decent chance the fourth main alignment will be close. If the pan ears are badly bent, you would notice that when trying to bolt the engine in the car. I would be inclined to fix the crank bushing problem and run it. A serious problem with the pan will manifest itself soon enough is there is one. Then it is time for a phone call.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 07:01 am:

Lol ya'll can laugh at me but sometimes folks mis-adventures on here stick with me and I think about them.

With some of the things you said about feeling sick I was wondering if perhaps you weren't overreacting. And then you said how much money you spent and OH MY GOODNESS I'd be having a coronary right now. You have every reason to be sick, frustrated, etc.

As I see it Matt you've got 3 options. Leave it (ugh that just makes me sick imagining that), fix it in the car, or remove it and have it put on a jig.

Considering all that has gone on and the money you've spent so far I don't see how you can even consider fixing it in the car. I've done some stuff where I've had everything back together only to discover I hadn't really fixed the problem. And while I was loathe to drain and pull the radiator and get all the way back in to whatever it was I was glad I just went ahead and did it. You're going to end up doing it anyway. At least that how I see it. You might fix it in the car but it'll nag you. Bite the bullet, pull the engine and get your pan straightened correctly. That's my vote now. Sorry!! I know lots of folks on here would be glad to help you get it out and get the pan straight. Who lives near Matt?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 07:59 am:

I do not know the engine builder and I do not know what your skills are Matt I'm only commenting on what I have read here.

If I understand what is written in this post the engine re-builder did not remove the engine from the car nor did he re-install the engine in the car so how can he be blamed for a mis-alignment. The pan ears could have been bent in shipment as well as the snout. Not all carriers are careful when they handle pallets and crates during transit. The frame could be bent as little as a 1/6" at the rear and by the time you get to the front of the car it could be out by 1/2". Same with the rear axle, it could be crooked on the frame by 1/6" and by the time the drive shaft and everything goes to the front it could be off by 1/2". A small twist is magnified by the length of the run. Check and double check your frame.

Close enough is not good enough it needs to be correct. Don't cobble it back together now it will only bring trouble and expenses later on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 10:40 am:

Agreed Eric - thus my statement regarding the use of strategically placed heat and manipulation - 4 dip pans are easy enough to replace if it had to be.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Mazza, north adams ma on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 12:06 pm:

Matt, that is very unfortunate that you are not getting any help. The only option it seems is to pull the pan and send it to a different shop. I just looked at your profile and luckily you are in Ma and close to one of the best shops in the country. I would just send it to J and M, it would be worth the hassel and expense to have it done, get it back fast and be on the road for the very near driving season. I just hope you dont find anything else wrong! Good luck! Keep us posted!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Foye on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 04:17 pm:

David, (all) - The engine is coming out, and pan is going to get straightened or replaced. Based on the info here, and my gut, I'd never be happy with it the way it is and it sounds like it will only cause more headache down the road. Thanks for the advice and information. I did learn a lot about pans, even though I'm learning the hard way... Thanks again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 10:04 pm:

Good call Matt, you will be much happier knowing it's done right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 10:26 pm:

You better get it running before you yank it out. Your expensive mechanic may have dropped the ball elsewhere . You could have other surprises to fix while the engine is out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Thursday, March 19, 2015 - 10:48 am:

"I pushed, pulled, tugged, twisted, and tried everything."

Did you loosen and/or remove the 2 bolts holding the crankcase front bearing cap on?


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