What have I got myself into?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: What have I got myself into?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 07:36 pm:

A new member of the club mentioned the other day that he was loosing low bands and had found a crack in the low speed drum.. In my ignorance I said I could fix that.... I didn't realise what a motor it was....



It is a RJJO, with 12 volts, starter, alternator, water pump and a mass of wires. It will be awful to work on. Look at the pump.



I should have gone to Chickasha!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 07:46 pm:

I hope he expects to pay you? If he doesn't, I would be telling him it's time for him to learn to fix it himself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 08:00 pm:

It has an oil pump where the generator should be on a later model. It has a pipe running up from what looks like the input to the pump, could this be for priming?
You can see it in the upper picture under the distributor cap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 08:02 pm:

Here is the cracked drum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 08:15 pm:

The stand pipe may well be for priming. That looks a lot like a Datsun B210 oil pump. I have one on my speedster and it has been trouble free with no loss of prime.

I hope he's paying for your services or at least helping out and learning in the process. I'd treat it like any other motor I wasn't intimately familiar with and take some photos in the process and mark all the electrical and other connections as I take them apart. Under the extra stuff, it's just a T motor. With the project really just transmission work, I'd leave as much of the motor intact as I could to limit the "opportunities" on reassembly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 09:26 pm:

I have confidence that you can replace that drum, Tony. However, getting to it, could be difficult! Be very careful to document the engine and how everything goes together. Good luck.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 11:40 pm:

Just put some super glue in the crack. It should hold at least until the crankshaft breaks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 12:18 am:

Actually there is a spacer between the pan and the inspection cover so it could well be an A crank. I don't want to know!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house . . .caldwell county, TX on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 01:56 am:

Hey Tony, Well I AM at Chickasha. Curled up in my truck. It's raining and I can't sleep.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 08:01 am:

I wouldn't know where to begin, other than towards the door!! Good luck! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 08:06 am:

The best part of this repair job would be the test drive when the engine is back in place :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 08:19 am:

Roger has it. Keep your eyes on the prize Tony - I bet that thing will SCOOT.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 01:33 pm:

I think all the bolts, wire and other bits are out of the way and will try to pull it Thursday afternoon. One question, the sump has been modified with a large round thing on the right side. Any ideas what it is and what I'll find inside?





I guess it is part of the oil pressure system, but the filter and pump are up near the front....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 01:40 pm:

LOL whoa. There's a LOT of stuff going on with this engine. No idea what's inside that crazy round thing but this thread sure is fun! Just keep calm and act like this is what every T motor looks like. =)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 01:47 pm:

Maybe a round screen oil filter?

Lots of opportunity to learn on that engine, keep us posted! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 05:07 pm:

"Any ideas what I will find inside"... OIL Tony OIL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Saturday, March 21, 2015 - 01:14 am:

Well Dennis you were correct, nothing in there but OIL.
I guess it is used as the feed to the oil pump and the ring gear may throw oil in that direction. I now have the pan off, quite complex as there are four oil pipes that have to be undone before the pan can be separated from the block. Going to be difficult to re-install with those hard lines.







The engine is quite well built, it uses a Scat crank but with longer throws and bigger bearings, looks very solid. the oil is full pressure with a drilled crnk. The holes are sealed with allen screws.

I found several broken clutch disks and a couple trapped in the front end of the brake drum. In the picture below you can see that the ribs do not go all the way to the bottom of the brake drum allowing a couple of the disks not to rotate with the drum.



Anyone seen anything like this before?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, March 21, 2015 - 01:28 am:

Looks like an early brake drum without the spacer on the bottom. The clutch plates have gotten stuck under the lugs. If your plan is to keep and use that drum you need to get the spacer and maybe a set of new disks.
If it were me I would get one of the new 1925 and earlier brake drums with the caps on the lugs and maybe use the Turbo 400 setup.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 12:22 am:

The low speed drum had two cracks and broke apart as I removed the rivets. Then I looked very carefully, in bright sunlight, there is a crack across the brake drum..... At least that will solve the need for a spacer, which I just bought from Bob Berstadt. It can be saved for the next one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 01:04 am:

Make sure the new drums are balanced before installing them in that engine. What band linings are you going to use? Kevlar is great if you do not slip the bands much.....new model T drivers do not realize the damage caused when letting the bands slip too much. Wood grabs much better and may be the best choice for an un-seasoned driver.
Suggest replacing the leaking water pump with a Texas T pump....The one on my car has not leaked in 10 yrs. of use. Has modern bearings/seals and stainless shaft/impeller. No adjustments required.
The RAJO is four valve....works well with high compression domed pistons. I know you do not think much of using a water pump....however, that engine needs it.
A lot of work/$$$'s went in to that engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 08:21 am:

If the low and brake drum are cracked you need to look close at the reverse drum, good chance it's cracked too. Does the car have outside brakes or is relying on just the transmission brake? With the extra HP and faster driving the owner might think about the "NEW" brake/clutch drum with the shoes on the lugs and maybe the Turbo 400 clutch setup.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 11:40 am:

I initially installed a "Turbo" clutch in my BB RAJO, full length A crank engine - too much H.P. it seemed to positively lock up the clutches - never could get it adjusted to not slip. Installed a stock steel clutch pack (on advice from a high H.P. knowledgeable guy) - cured all slippage issues.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 12:05 pm:

Thanks Steve good info.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 12:49 pm:

I have been advised to use the steel disks on a high horse power engine and a new clutch spring.
I have checked the reverse drum quite carefully and can see no cracks....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 01:08 pm:

Tony - have the reverse drum magnafluxed (sp) - visual just doesn't cut it. Immerse the drum completely in solvent then lay out to dry - the cracks will hold the solvent and one can see the cracks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 - 12:24 am:

I took the brake drum and the reverse drum to the machine shop to have them cleaned and magnafluxed.
Does anyone know if Dave Nolting still makes new drums? I have sent an email and two phone calls, so far with no response.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 - 02:12 am:

I have just received a response from Dave, the prices in the Vintage Ford are current, once I know what I need after the magnaflux results and separate the gears, I will place my order.
Its moving forward....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Martin on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 - 06:19 am:

Tony, I had the pleasure of buying a drum from Dave. If you can send him your shaft or gear, he has all of the right fixtures to get the two mated correctly with minimal runout or risk of damaging the parts when riveting. The drums are beautiful, every surface is machined, and machined well. Dave went out of his way to answer my questions even after I had the drum sitting in a box for over a year.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. For the amount of work involved in these drums, we are fortunate that Dave makes them at such a reasonable cost.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 12:59 am:

The brake and reverse drums did not show any cracks during the magnaflux process, the low gear is now boxed and will be shipped to Dave on Wednesday.
Just like to thank everyone for the advise and support :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 02:08 am:

I believe the round thing on the side of the oil pan is the fremulator.

http://www.dauntlessgeezer.com/DG12.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 11:15 am:

The thing on the crankcase is what Fred Hoss called a stilling well. It provides a place for the oil pump pickup to get oil that is less churned up and aerated by the flywheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 11:49 am:

Factually Eric is correct, but I like Steve's Fremulator.


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