I have a pair of wheels that I know nothing about other than they are demountable clinchers with detached lugs. The wheels are Hayes with 1921 patents and the rims are Firestone. The measurements shown are O.D. Were these used on T's?
(Message edited by JunkyJud on March 17, 2015)
They look like 30 x 3 1/2 Model T wheels to me.
Yes, they appear to be Model T wheels for 30 x 3 1/2 clinchers. It's hard to be sure from those pictures, but I think I detect Hayes notches at the bolt holes.
Hayes rims have attached lugs that extend inward past the bead to fit in those notches.
I don't have any Firestone lugs to show you.
In my humble opinion, the rims appear to be Kelsey 88 loose lug rims. I think the indent Steve is seeing is in fact the slot in the rim on which the loose lug rests. Those rims are a mis-match on those wheels. The felloe they belong on has registers punched in the small diameter for the other end of the loose lug to engage. The rims are typical of Canadian cars, while the wheels are of the US style which has rims with fixed lugs.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
I'll have to get some closer pictures of the rim flange at the bolt holes and also the notches on the rim. I didn't mention it specifically but the rims are physically stamped "Firestone".
I'm hoping to find a good home for these in someone else's garage and want to be sure of what I have. Thank you for the information so far.
Firestone wheels lock securely to the wheel by means of a lug around the valve stem.
Firestone rim clamps secure the rim to the wheel clamping it securely via a tooth on each wheel lug that fits a machined slot in the rim.
There is a groove machined in each wheel to give clearance to the tooth on the lug.
Royce, those are just what mine are.
Are these wheels desirable or do they just make good wall hangers? I can't say that I've ever noticed this type of wheel on many cars but maybe I haven't looked closely enough.
Someone was looking for a pair of Firestone wheels and rims a while back:
Royce, I have never seen rims like these. Does the neck around the valve stem protrude through the felloe, thus preventing it from turning on the felloe?
The U shaped piece shows a taper at the rim end. Is it worn this way or is it machined like that? If it is machined, is the rim machined likewise to accept it
Does the longer leg on the loose lug simply end up adjacent to the felloe, without anything for it to engage on? This would mean the lug could/would bottom out on the outer face of the felloe.
Allan from down under.
Here are some closer details of the wheel valve stem and lug areas.
Justin - you definitely have a pair of original equipment Model T Ford 30 X 3 1/2 Firestone wheels. They are from about 1923 - 24 I think. They are not too common, which means not many people want or need them. They are valuable to the right guy. You just have to find him!
Justin, your new photos have lead me to more questions. The tubular lug on the rim does not engage with the felloe at all. Should the felloe have a corresponding larger tube into which the rim tube drops? Like it is, the rim is free to rotate on the felloe.
The depression in the edge of the felloe serves no purpose with the rims as shown. My Hayes wire wheels have that depression to accommodate the foot on the Hayes fixed lug rims as Steve shows in his last photo.
The rim does appear to have a machined groove where the U shaped lug engages the rim. That makes sense. What does not make sense is the absence of a land for the other end of the loose lug. When the bolt is tightened, the lug wedges the rim against the outer edge of the felloe. It there is no land on the felloe, the lug will be skewed and simply jam on an angle. I still suspect that the rim/felloe is a mis-match.
Others may/do have differing opinions.
Allan from down under
Allan, shame on me for not doing more digging prior to posting my question but I believe that you are correct. This discussion from a few years back covers this topic rather thoroughly - http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/92314.html
My felloes do not have a locator cup at the valve stem as I believe Royce's do. From the other discussion it looks like the Firestone felloe has the cup but the Hayes (like mine) do not. My rims fit the felloes very well but without a locator lug, they would most likely spin. They should have Hayes attached lug clincher rims. If and when I peddle or trade them off I'll do them separately.
Justin, I'm pretty sure your felloes are not Hayes. Note the cut-out notch in my first picture versus the rolled depression in your last shot. The Hayes rim may or may not fit, but I think your wheels are probably Kelsey, Firestone, or one of the other non-Hayes makes. Sometimes there are manufacturers' marks hidden by rust and crud, so look closely.
Steve, there must be two styles of Hayes felloes. On or Canadian sourced cars, the outer edge of the felloe is rolled in, as shown in Justin's last photo. This is exactly like my Hayes wire wheel photos.
On your photo, the outer edge of the felloe simply terminates on the vertical, with no rolled in edge. This is how the majority of our 21" felloes are on the improved cars. I have not seen any 23" felloes like that on Australian cars.
Allan from down under.
Here are some pictures of the name stampings. The felloe is Hayes and the rim is Firestone. Here is another good discussion on wheels from last year - http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/437128.html
Steve, one of the last photos on the earlier discussion that I posted above shows a black wheel that has the roll over like mine. Is that a 23" wheel or 21"?
Thanks for the extra photos Justin. The vast majority of 23" demountable wheels on our Canadian sourced cars are Kelsey, with the rolled in outer edge as shown on your Hayes felloe. Because they were all loose lug rims until our 1925 models, there was never any need for the depression to accommodate the foot of the Hayes fixed lug rims.
In 1925 we did get the fixed lug rims as supplied in the USA, but I have never seen Hayes felloes. Again, because the rims had welded on fixed lugs without the foot like Hayes rims, there was never any need for the depression in the rolled outer edge.
I needed to work all this out to get some felloes to re-build a pair of Hayes wire wheels. I welded up the 12 wooden spoke holes, dimpled and drilled them for wire wheel spokes, and then had to make the relief in the edge for the Hayes rims.
Lots of work, but one does what one needs to do.
Allan from down under.
Well, it sounds like I have a pair of odd felloes. If anyone is interested in either the Hayes wheels or Firestone rims let me know.