Front motor supports

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Front motor supports
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Friday, March 20, 2015 - 01:26 pm:

Does anyone have the specs on the nose for the different year pans from early to 1926-7
narrow nose to 3 bay to 4 bay, Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, March 20, 2015 - 09:12 pm:

Bob,

The online Model T Encyclopedia at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/index.htm has a lot of helpful information as partially shown below. On that page all of those headings is a link to more information. And there is an alphabetical listing plus other items.

OR SELECT COMPONENT LISTED BELOW
Brake Cables  Brake Lever  Brake Rods  Brake Shoes  Brake Rod Supports
Bushings
Carburetors  Carburetor Stoves
Coil Boxes  Coils  Coil Evolution
Control Rods
Crank  Crank Ratchets
Door Straps
Driveshaft  Driveshaft Housing
Engine  Engine Block  Engine Crankcase  Engine Head  Engine Head Bolts
Engine Mount  Engine Painting  Engine Specifications
Fan  Fan Belts
Fenders  Fender Blocks
Firewall (Dash)
Floorboards  Floor Mats
Frame (Chassis)  Frame Numbers
Front Axle
Fuel Tank  Fuel Tank Caps
Headlight Switches
Hood  Hood Clips  Hood Former  Hood Handles
Horns
Hub Caps
Ignition Keys  Instrument Panel
Lamps
Magneto  Magneto Post
Manifolds
Mufflers
Oilers  Oil Filler Caps
Paint Formulas  Painting  Painting Engines  Why Black Paint  Paints used in 1924
Pickup Boxes (1925-1927)
Radiators
Rear Axles  Rear Axle Housings  Rear Axle Parts
Running Boards
Sediment Bulbs
Speedometers
Spark Plugs
Splash Aprons
Springs  Spring Painting  Spring Shackles
Steering Column  Steering Gear Case  Steering Wheels  Steering Connecting Rod  Worm Gear Steering
Timer (Commutator)  Timing Gear Cover
Tools, Tool Rolls (Supplied with the car)
Tops (Open Cars)
Transmission  Transmission Covers
Turtle Decks
Upholstery
Weights
Wheels  Wheel Hubs (Front)  Wheel Hubs (Rear)  Wheel Hub Caps
Windshields

And the link for engine crankcase is: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/E.htm#eng8 which takes you to:


ENGINE CRANKCASE
There is some confusion in the Parts Lists and other sources regarding factory numbers. Some list this number as T800; others as T1526. The letter suffixes are also confusing. T800A, B, C, etc. is the number of the main body of the crankcase. T1526A, B, C. etc. is the assembly of T800 and the side arms, front and rear walls, etc. Factory drawings show T1526E beginning December 28, 1910 but the Parts Lists indicate the number as T1526C until the 1917 models. T1526E in the Parts Lists doesn’t appear until the four-dip pan in 1924.
1909
(3069) F/N T1586A, Early 1909
One-piece with long front bearing in which the rear bearing rivet was located behind the front oil seal, inside the crankcase area. The rear flange had no reinforcement. Had oil dam behind fourth cylinder. Rather deep oil troughs under rods. Early version had a transmission band support (eliminated in a drawing dated Feb. 2, 1909).
1909
3069 (T1526B, C)
One-piece with no inspection plate on bottom. Had oil dam at rear cylinder. Shorter front bearing with rear rivet now outside the crankcase area. Minor variations in the stamping to allow greater connecting rod clearance. Dust pans on side of engine and transmission.
1910
3069 (T1586C)
Similar to 1909. Reinforcement added at the rear flange early in the year. Later the oil dam was dropped.
1911
3100 (T1586D, E)
Similar to 1910. Beginning in February a new magneto was used and a new, wider, square-hole transmission cover and pan was introduced. This new pan was still "one-piece" but had shallower troughs than the 1909-10 type. About 44,400 (March), the pan with the removable bottom plate appeared. The inspection plate was of heavier metal than the common type, had deeper troughs (7/8" vs 11/16") than the later types, and was embossed around the edges. The inspection plate retaining collar was one piece and was riveted in place. The riveting is believed to have been discontinued during the year. Deep "teacup" oil drain.
1912
3100 (T1526E)
Similar to the later 1911 type with removable bottom. The 1911 type inspection plate may have been replaced by the thinner, shallower, "standard" type during this period (date unknown). 1912 is believed to have been the last year for transmission side dust pans but engine side pans continued until the end of Model T production. during production the 7-rivet side arms were changed to the 3-rivet type.
1913-1916
3100 (T1526E) Early 1913 cars used the 1912-style pan except that the mounting ears were held with just three rivets (instead of seven). The slotted drain plug was still used. About June 1913 the now-standard design (no deep drain cup, and 15/16" drain plug) appeared. Narrow front "nose" continued until 1917. The two piece inspection plate screw retaining collar appeared in 1913, Replacing the one-piece type used earlier.
1917-1924
3100 (T1526E)
Wider front nose to allow larger crank pulley (which didn’t appear until 1920).
1924-1927
3100 (T1526E)
(No part number change from earlier style.) Similar to 1917-24 but now with larger "four-dip" inspection plate. (New pan began in July 1924.) Pressed-steel reinforcing brackets used at the engine/ transmission junction corners sometime later. By November 1925, all engines also had the support straps from the motor mount to the transmission bolts at the rear of the cylinder block (1926 models and later).

________________________________________
CRANKCASE CHANGES
Date Factory # Description
T815A Crankcase side arm, first 2500
T819A Universal ball cap, first 2500
T819B Universal ball cap, next 2500
T819C Never used
T819D Universal ball cap, after 5000
11-13-07 T1526A Crankcase assembly, first drawing
11-29-07 T801A C.C. support front end, first 2500
12-26-07 T809A Front radius. rod ball socket adopted
04-17-08 T899A Transmission case flange, 3/16" sheet steel, first 750 cars
10-01-08 T800A C.C., first 2500
10-22-08 T814A C.C. rear wall, adopted
10-24-08 T814 C.C. rear wall, obsolete
11-10-08 T800A Crankcase, adopted
11-10-08 T800B Crankcase, adopted
12-22-08 T801B C.C. front end, second 2500
01-27-09 T1526A Crankcase assy. with trough under transmission and long T801 front end
01-27-09 T814A C.C. rear wall. Location of top hole increased from 3/8" to 1"
02-08-09 T800B C.C. Eliminated T813 transmission band support
02-10-09 T813 Trans. band support used on two-lever cars, obsolete this date.
02-12-09 T801C C.C. support front end adopted
02-24-09 T801C C.C. support; added 1" hole and two cavities on either side.
03-11-09 T1526C C.C. assy. Short T801 and forged T899B
03-12-09 T1526A C.C. assy., obsolete
04-13-09 T800A C.C. Clearance for connecting rods increased
04-13-09 T800B C.C. Clearance for connecting rods increased
04-13-09 T800B C.C. added depression beneath transmission for strengthening.
04-19-09 T814B C.C. rear wall, after first 2500
08-19-09 T899B Transmission case flange adopted
09-08-09 T814B C.C. rear wall. Made a slot 1/2" x 5-1/2" for oil level instead of round hole.
09-14-09 T814B C.C. rear wall. Reduced length of slot to 4-1/2"
02-15-10 T800A C.C. Flattened bottom of pan to accommodate change in oil drain cup.
02-16-10 T816 C.C. drain cup. Changed top surface from cylindrical to flat.
03-17-10 T800A C.C. Increased radius at rear end of pan to accommodate change in flange.
04-13-10 T809A Front radius rod ball socket. Increased height from 3/4" to 1"
04-13-10 T800A C.C. Moved placement of rivets on C.C. arms by 3/16"
04-13-10 T815A C.C. side arm, new design
04-18-10 T800A C.C. Increased distance from top of pan to ball socket by 1/4"
05-02-10 T814A C.C. rear wall, obsolete.
05-02-10 T814B C.C. rear wall, obsolete
05-04-10 T899B Trans. case flange. Change length of transmission cover screw bosses from 5/8 to 3/8"
05-05-10 T800A C.C. Removed T814B rear wall.
05-11-10 T807 C.C. front wall. Redesigned and changed from pressed steel to malleable iron.
05-11-10 T808 C.C. front wall felt block, obsolete
05-12-10 T800A C.C. Moved several rivets in side arm T815A.
05-15-10 T809B Front radius rod ball adopted
08-31-10 T1582A C.C. cover. New drawing for removable inspection plate.
08-31-10 T1583 C.C. cover reinforcement, adopted for three-dip pan.
09-27-10 T800C C.C. Used for first 5000 1911 cars before obsoleting.
10-01-10 T1526D C.C. assy. New design with removable inspection plate.
10-01-10 T800C C.C. First 5000 1911 cars.
12-28-10 T1526B C.C. assy. Used on 2500 cars after the first 2500.
12-28-10 T1526E C.C. assy. Changed number from 1526D to 1526E.
03-31-11 T1582A C.C. cover. Moved furthest rear bolt hole from 3/8" from end to 1/2"
04-25-11 T1582A C.C. cover. Changed size of holes from 11/32 to 23/64"
05-10-11 T800B C.C. Moved wall of transmission pit ahead and increased door flange reinforcement from 3/16 to 1/4"
05-13-11 T1582A C.C. cover. Depth of pockets reduced from 1-1/32" to 7/8" and radius increased from 3-7/8 to 4-1/2"
06-14-11 T800B C.C. Removed rivets that fastened reinforcement to case and spot weld reinforcement and side arms to case.
07-27-11 T800B C.C. Removed reinforcement
08-04-11 T800B C.C. Removed spot welds from side arms
08-04-11 T815B C.C. side arm. Changed number of rivet holes from three to seven.
08-10-11 T1526E C.C. assy. Removed rivets from bottom reinforcement
10-04-11 T815A C.C. side arm. Obsolete
10-05-11 T800A C.C. Obsolete
11-10-11 T1526E C.C. assy. Solder front wall instead of braze
11-10-11 T1526E Removed lock wire from C.C. cover screws
11-10-11 T1526E C.C. assy. Changed side arm rivets from flat head to round head
09-09-12 T815B C.C. side arm. Lowered top of arm from 3/4" to 5/8" (?)
10-26-12 T817 C.C. drain plug. Changed from round slotted to hex
10-29-12 T1582A C.C. cover. Removed reinforcing ridge from outside of cover
11-18-12 T815B C.C. side arm. Reduced number of rivet holes from 7 to 3 and added brazing hole
11-21-12 T1526E C.C. assy. Reduced number of side arm rivet holes from 7 to 5 and added brazing hole
03-20-13 T801C C.C. support front end. Shortened length from 6-27/32 to 5-3/4". Replaced 1" hole with 5/8" radius notch.
03-20-13 T816 Oil drain cup. Reduced height 1/16" because C.C. were made shallow and it was easier to change the cup than to change the crankcase
04-22-13 T816 Oil drain cup. Increased the overall height from 1-1/4 to 1-3/8"
05-17-13 T815B C.C. side arm. Reinforcing pockets at top end to be straight instead of tapered
07-17-13 T816 Oil drain cup redesigned
07-19-13 T800D C.C. Changed diameter of hole in front end from 1" to 7/8"
10-17-13 T800D C.C. Removed T816 drain cup; now stamped integral with the crankcase. T816 Obsolete.
11-21-13 T800D C.C. Changed oil drain pocket to make joint between stamped flange and oil plug tight.
02-23-14 T4379A Rear C.C. reinforcement. Adopted for 3-dip pan T4378 and T4379, replacing T1583.
02-22-15 T899B Trans. case flange. Notches in flange opposite universal ball joint cap screws
04-15-15 T1526E C.C. assy. New design flange at rear end
04-17-15 T807 C.C. front wall. Oil felt groove to be round instead of square
02-10-16 T807 C.C. front wall. Added 5/16" hole in bottom of oil felt groove
04-10-16 T800D C.C. Front end enlarged to allow use of larger fan pulley.
04-10-16 T807 C.C. front wall. Redesigned for wide-nose pan
07-06-16 T800D C.C. Added 5/16" flange at outside of C.C. flange
07-06-16 T815B C.C. side arm. Redesigned to provide clearance for flange around outside of C.C.
12-19-16 T807 C.C. front wall. Increased width of felt groove from 3/8 to 9/16"
01-18-17 T1526E C.C. Assy. Wide nose pan drawn
03-02-17 T807 C.C. front wall. Changed felt groove drain hole to cone-shaped
04-16-17 T807 C.C. front wall. Changed boss on left-hand cylinder front cover screw to have a 45 degree angle.
12-14-18 T807 Changed width of oil felt groove to 1/2"
03-11-19 T801D C.C. support front end. Specified Ford script to be forged in part.
03-19-19 T807 C.C. front wall. Added Ford script
03-19-19 T809B Front radius rod ball socket. Added Ford script.
03-19-19 T899B Transmission case flange. Added Ford scrip to forging
04-23-19 T1582A C.C. cover. Added pocket 1-/4" wide by 3/64" deep around cover to crankcase screw holes
05-08-19 T800D C.C. Added reinforcing rib on front side of flywheel pit.
05-08-19 T809B Front radius rod ball socket. Increased number of rivet holes from 2 to 4.
02-02-20 T800D C.C. Removed two overflow bosses T1528 and draw two bosses in case.
04-22-20 T819D U-joint ball cap. Added 3/8" hole in top of bushing, to be drilled after babbitting.
07-07-20 T1526E C.C. assy. 4-rivet ball socket design released ASAP
03-16-23 T815B C.C. side arm. Moved 3/4" brazing hole up 3/8"
05-26-23 T815B Moved bottom rivet up 3/8"
06-25-23 T815B Made lower end straight instead of beveled
07-07-23 T1526E C.C. assy. Lower end of side arm supports made square instead of beveled.
01-17-24 T1582A C.C. cover. Changed to T1582AR indicating for repairs only.
01-17-24 T1582B C.C. assy. "Four-Dip" pan. (This new pan wasn’t used in production until July 18, 1924 according to engine production records.)
01-17-24 T4378B Front C.C. cover reinforcement for 4-dip pan
01-17-24 T43798B Rear C.C. cover reinforcement for 4-dip pan
01-17-24 T809C Front radius rod ball socket for 4-dip pan
01-27-24 T801E C.C. front end support for 4-dip pan
03-15-24 T1526E Four-dip crankcase drawn
10-11-24 T1526E C.C. Specified universal joint ball cap be held with a stud instead of a bolt
11-11-24 T1526E Wall which supports radius rod ball socket moved forward 1/8"
02-27-25 T4378B Front C.C. cover reinforcement. Increased thickness from .182 to .245 inches
02-27-25 T4379B Rear C.C. cover reinforcement. Increased thickness from .182 to .245 inches
04-27-25 T1582B C.C. cover (door). Removed flange from outside edge and 1/8" offset from inside cover. Increased thickness to .093"

And from the above the front mount of the pan changes are listed as shown below. The number T801 is the factory number with the A, B, C, D, E, indicating a bigger change. For minor changes the factory number did not receive a suffix – just a not on the change card.

11-29-07 T801A C.C. support front end, first 2500

12-22-08 T801B C.C. front end, second 2500

02-12-09 T801C C.C. support front end adopted

02-24-09 T801C C.C. support; added 1" hole and two cavities on either side.

03-20-13 T801C C.C. support front end. Shortened length from 6-27/32 to 5-3/4". Replaced 1" hole with 5/8" radius notch.

03-11-19 T801D C.C. support front end. Specified Ford script to be forged in part.
I believe the date on the above should be closer to 1917 or there should be another change around 1917. Along in that time the front of the crank case was changed to allow the clearance for the larger pulley that was not introduced until 1920 (ref page 436 of Bruce McCalley’s (R.I..P.) book “Model T Ford.”)

01-27-24 T801E C.C. front end support for 4-dip pan

Note Bruce’s book has some very good pictures on the engine pans for the various years (available in paper back from the club at: http://modeltstore.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/model-t-ford-the -car-that-changed-the-world . It is also available on CD please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/333725.html?1357665853 and note the shipping went up to $6.25. Additionally Bruce noted there were minor changes in the engine pans / crank cases during the years.

So if you have a narrower year range you are interested in, folks could provide more specific details. And remember that in addition to the front all those other changes were also occurring.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Saturday, March 21, 2015 - 10:51 am:

Bob, Are you looking into making these? I think it would be great and much needed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Saturday, March 21, 2015 - 12:39 pm:

No I have a few nos ones trying to figure out what years, books are not showing great pictures, Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, March 21, 2015 - 09:20 pm:

Mark Herdman posted a three part article that used Canadian crank cases to show the changes over the years. The dates of the changes were provided by Trent Boggess. [Thank you Mark and Trent!] It was not published but it contains some excellent information. It has some great photos of the factory number T801 support front end (nose piece) over many years.

If that doesn’t answer your question, recommend you add photos with a ruler etc. in the photo so folks can tell the size. Then ask the folks to help identify the year range the part was used. Remember from the information Bruce shared that sometimes there was some variation during the years.

Part A
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/356164.html?1366445246
Part B
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/356250.html?1366445992
Part C
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/356346.html?1366342371

Some additional discussion and photos:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/286704.html?1336431804

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 - 09:15 am:

Thank you Hap, Bob


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