What year is this picture from?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: What year is this picture from?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ake Osterdahl on Monday, March 23, 2015 - 04:51 am:

Does anyone know when the year when this picture was taken? And be happy in what context, it can be when it introduced a new model year maybe?
Looks like a "rounded top" Coupelet or (taxi cab) to the right in the photo behind a "flated top" Coupelet. The Coupelet in the foreground has footstep that is unlike the usual sheet metal ?!
The wheel which is set up on podium showing enough the new removable wheel.
the car on the left seems to have striping on the door ....
Interesting picture I think.
Would be very interesting to know when it is photographed.
Noting that the cars have the wheels with the early demountable rims.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, March 23, 2015 - 05:07 am:

Ake, the wheel on the pedestal might indicate that the demountable wheels were being promoted. As far as I know, Ford never used 5 bolt demountables, so those shown may be Firestone accessory wheels. This will not necessarily give a good date for your photo.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, March 23, 2015 - 07:16 am:

Ake,

Great photo. I believe I remember seeing it in one of the books I’ve reviewed, but so far I have not found which one. But often times in the books they will give a date in the caption that is several years off from the actual car(s). Even very good books such as Robert Kreipke’s “The Model T Ford” have a few photos mis-labeled such as the 1910 tourabout on page 72 in the 1915 section and labeled a 1915. So finding it in the book may or may not help.

I believe that the photo likely shows the flat top 1918 Coupelet (hard top but removable window pillar. Disclaimer -- I cannot really see where the hinges on the door are located. I.e. if it has the three hinges on the lower part of the door then clearly it is the 1918 Coupelet. But if only two hinges are on the lower part and one hinge is up near the top then a 1919 style coupe body that did not have the removable window channel. And I don’t know how early that style was introduced. I.e. could it have been sold without a starter in the late part of the 1918 model year and in that case it would have had side lamps? I do not know the answer to that. And I cannot make out where the hinges are in the photo.) The car with the rounded top I suspect is a touring car fitted with a California style top. It might be a 1917 rounded top Coupelet – but the spare tire appears to be mounted very high for a Coupelet, coupe, or roadster fitted with a California style top. The California tops were available from several companies for roadsters and tourings. And with all the other accessories shown, a California top would fit well in the display.



If the car behind the flat top Coupelet (or Coupe if it has a hinge near the top of the door) is fitted with an accessory “California Top” I would date the photo been taken between Aug 1917 to Jan 1919 plus or minus a couple of months. If the car behind the flat top Coupelet (or Coupe) is a rounded top Coupelet then I would think the photo would likely have been taken around Aug 1917 when both the 1917 model year cars and the 1918 model year cars would have been produced and available. But I think the car in the background is more likely a 1918 fitted with a California top.

Some additional reasons for that date:

In this case we have some very good clues on when the photo was taken. It appears to have new Fords that have multiple accessories on them. I.e. the 5 lug demountable wheels rather than the standard four lug wheels that were introduced in the 1919 model year. We see bumpers, depot hacks, truck bodied etc.

For dating the photo we notice that the cars are left hand drive – so likely a USA photo as there were more Ts in the USA than other countries. And the decorations appear to have USA flags so I’ll go with USA for now. You will notice that the enclosed cars still have the side lamps and do not have the standard 4 lug demountable wheels supplied by Ford (both Kelsey loose lug and Hayes fixed lugs were offered in the 1919 model year). Note Bruce McCalley (R.I.P.) used Jan 1919 as the start of the 1919 model year. That would have been when the starters and demountable wheels became standard on the closed cars. (ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1919.htm ).

We can also see from the touring car that it has the unequal length windshield hinges. We know those were introduced around Apr 1917 (ref Apr 19, 1917 entry at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc17.htm ).

So we know the cars are dated between Apr 1917 and Jan 1919 by those items.

If you look closely at the Coupelet (or Coupe depending on the location of the hinges) I believe you can see the combination horn button and headlight switch mounted in the housing attached to the side of the steering column rather than the single horn button attached directly on top of the steering column. That would make it clearly a 1918 car. And of course the flat top would also indicate it was a 1918 rather than a 1917 rounded style. But we know so little about the Coupelets. When was the last rounded top Coupelet produced and when was the first flat top one produced and how much overlap if any was there?

And yes the Coupelet (or Coupe if the hinge is at the top) appears to have an accessory running board of some sort.

And the roadster with the pin striping also appears to have accessory wheels? But they appear to be 4 lug rather than 5 lug and they are painted a lighter color with the lugs highlighted as darker.

Again, a great photo. If you have a higher resolution copy that can show the hinges better that would be very helpful.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Monday, March 23, 2015 - 10:08 am:

I was thinking pre-1919 because all of the cars have side lamps. My understanding is you didn't get those if you got a starter car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, March 23, 2015 - 11:42 am:

There is a lot to see in that picture; thank you for posting it, Ake.

Hap, I can see three small light reflections where the hinges would be for a Coupelet, so I'm pretty sure that's what it is (1918). Good call on the Touring with a California top. I couldn't figure that one out, but I believe you're right.

The cars are all heavily accessorized, so it's obviously a major display. Maybe it's the introduction of the new 1918 model year line-up, showing all of Ford's different body styles and accessories available for them. Whoever made the demountable-rim wheels must have been a show sponsor. :-)

The car with the motometer at left looks like a non-Ford, so one might assume that this is Ford's niche in a multi-manufacturer expo. The truck in the background could be an aftermarket body on a TT chassis, or maybe it's another make.

Great picture!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, March 23, 2015 - 11:44 am:

The coupe has rear hinged doors, side lamps (therefore no starter), three hinged door (think I can see the top one), so my guess is 1918.
Have fun shooting me down!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, March 23, 2015 - 05:53 pm:

Shall I throw a wrench into the discussion? I don't think the car behind the flat-top T coupe is a Ford. Yes, it could be a T touring with a California top. But that looks like the car's rear fender down by the side, and it does not look like a Ford fender. The cars across from it also are not Fords. I do think it was taken at some sort of general automobile show. The Fords could be an accessories company. Can't tell, but even the corner of the radiator and Motometer could be Ford accessories? But probably not. (Looks like a Maxwell to me.)
There are at least two depot hacks and one delivery truck in the background. One hack is definitely a T Ford, and has those nice five-lug accessory demountable wheels. The others? I can't say for sure if they are Ford or not. There is also a Ford chassis in the back (your left) with an interesting firewall. It is large and square like a 1914, but is black era and has the side lamps mounted on it. It probably was to have a delivery or depot hack body put on it. The interesting thing is that (to my knowledge, questionable as it may be) Ford never supplied later chassis with a large firewall. So I would guess that the accessory and/or body supplier has already added the firewall.
The coupe (couplet?) with all the accessories is wonderful! Running boards like that are very unusual. However, I know it was done some.
Overall, a fantastic photo, Ake! Thank you for sharing it. I just cannot decide whether I think it is a removable pillar coupe or not. It looks like there is something near the top of the pillar? But it does not look like quite the right spot for a door hinge? Maybe just an odd reflection of light? I tend to think it may be a removable pillar couplet? If so, how close is it to your couplet?
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, March 23, 2015 - 07:22 pm:

Wayne -- I believe you're right that the car behind the Coupelet is not a Ford. The fender does look different. And since it's facing the opposite direction, it's on the next aisle over, so it's probably a different make.

I'm still seeing three glints of light where the 3 hinges would be on a Coupelet door, so I'm pretty well convinced they are reflections off the hinges. I don't know what that thing is which is attached to the top near the post, but it's too high to be a door hinge. Some kind of running light, maybe?

At first I thought the car above the Coupelet's hood was a Runabout, but why would they have two of those if they're showing the full lineup? Now I think that car is the Touring and its folded top can be seen through the Coupelet's windshield and quarter window.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, March 23, 2015 - 09:27 pm:

Yeah -- found the photo. It is on page 36 of Lorin Sorensen's "The Ford Shows" [that was the entire Christmas one year..]

Below is the caption from that page describing the photo:



Even in the zoomed in photo below I cannot really see the three hinges below the belt line of the car. I can sort of see some dots that might be reflections -- but you can also see some white dots that clearly are just "oops" in the printing of the photo. I am leaning towards it is a 1918 Coupelet -- but from what I have looked at so far, I cannot tell for sure one way or the other. If someone visits the Detroit Public library and looks at the orginial photo(s) it might clarify it for everyone.



And of course "truth in commenting" you will notice that the view below of the 1918 Coupe is the 1918 Coupelet that is shown in several factory photos. I do NOT believe it is the exact same car at the show -- why? Where did that front bumper go? If it was -- it would clearly prove that it was the Coupelet as you can clearly see the three low hinges in that view. That photo is shown below also from page 36.



Sorry -- I have to run and turn in for the night. The day job pays the electric bill for the computer.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ake Osterdahl on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 - 04:44 am:

The picture you sent Hap, is probably a 1917 "rounded top" Looked at the back window which is lower on the early model (top two images) the lower picture shows that the latter "flated top" have higher and straighter edge on the sides Hap .Thank you for putting down the time to look, it makes me happy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ake Osterdahl on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 - 05:19 am:

I have always wondered why my Coupelet has a different design where I show by the arrow. This looks like mine, and it has manufacturing September 22 1917
Could it be that I think some early cars were equally as Center Door if I understand it right. Center Door has also rear plate that curves up ahead over the roof a bit.
............?
When I began the renovation, I saw nothing to indicate that any changed or added anything, lower back plate and top with the rear window looked just as patina out.

Hap basic image I found on this site; www.genisis2scale.com/ on pages 3.

I have studied and even brought my car, this is a Coupelet "pillarless" model.
Ake


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ake Osterdahl on Tuesday, March 24, 2015 - 05:30 am:

Here you see Bob's 1918 study rear roof, does not resemble mine, or the old image.
Here you see Bob's 1918 study rear roof, does not resemble mine, or the old image.
I note that the foot step in the picture is very shiny.
I come with many pictures of my soon only I can drive it out of the garage.

Ake Sweden


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