Front hub questions

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Front hub questions
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 05:54 pm:

Today I went through hubs looking for a good pair to make a couple of new wheels. One of the two I picked had a Timken outer bearing and the remains of an old ball-type inner bearing. Getting that inner cup out of the hub has turned out to be a problem.


I wasn't surprised to find a ring keeping the cup in place.


What surprised me is that it's not a normal snap ring. It's one piece, with no gap or removal holes. Is there some simple way of getting the ring out, other than cutting it?

I'm going with a Hayes theme here, because the best hubs happen to have the Hayes mark on them.




But it also has this mark. I wonder if anybody can explain the significance of 4.


(Message edited by steve_jelf_parkerfield_ks on March 27, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 06:25 pm:

I believe you are referring to the snap ring slot for the ball retainer.



The race is a press fit and drives out from the other side. There are no "slots" in the early hub because the ball race sticks up where you can drive it out.

You may want to apply a little Bag Balm on the Timken inner race.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 06:28 pm:

Can't seem to delete the second post....

(Message edited by drkbp on March 27, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 06:41 pm:

Steve -- I don't know how picky you're being about correctness, but if that's for your '15, it's a later hub.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Redelman on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 07:44 pm:

Steve use your AC stick welder and put about 3=1" welds on the ball track and when it cools the race will fall out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Owens on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 07:56 pm:

Steve, Steve Redelman is right. But I would weld all the way around and leave a fat tall bead. When the weld cools is shrinks and your problem is solved. As for the 4 I think that is the mold makers mark. They can tell who is doing the work, or what pattern is being used. That way they can trace a problem and fix it. In the early days of cast iron cookware the mold makers mark is how they counted up and paid the worker. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 08:27 pm:

This 2008 thread has a picture from Royce of a 1915 hub next to a later hub:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/67440.html?1222873495

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 08:48 pm:

For what it's worth I have turned down hubs beyond the threads to get the smaller land of the early hubs. The hub cap still threads on up to the turned down land and you really cannot tell the difference. You don't have to take much off, just enough so the hub cap will pass over it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 10:42 pm:

More questions. In Mark's linked post, Royce says the hub with the machined lip and three holes for the speedometer gear was only for 1914-1915, after which the speedometer was discontinued. Both of those are features this hub has. Either he was mistaken and they were continued on later hubs, or this is a 1914-1915 hub. If it's a later one, what identifies it as such?

Will welding a bead on the cup shrink it so much that it will pass though that ring? (See first picture.) I thought that procedure was for removing Timken cups from early hubs with no slot. With the ball bearing cup no slot is needed. A drift reaches it easily. With the ring removed, it should be easy to drive out the cup, no heat needed. The question was how to remove the ring. Maybe THAT's what I need to heat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Martin on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 10:55 pm:

Steve, There is no ring, that feature you are seeing is the end of the cup beyond the snap ring groove (in the cup) used to retain the balls. Sometimes the hubs are worn or have a lip on the inside of the bore, and makes getting the cup out difficult. With only the two slots in the hub, sometimes the cups are damaged getting them out. Good luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Owens on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 11:02 pm:

Steve the groove you see is for a retainer ring. the balls and cage go in, then a felt seal then a retainer of some type. It will all come out as one piece. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 12:33 am:


Armed with that clear info from David, I drove the cup out with a hammer and drift. No heat needed. Also no need to worry about damaging the cup. It was already junk. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 08:05 am:

This is a 1915 - 1916 hub on a wheel that was just re - wooded by Stutzmann.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 09:38 am:

Royce:It's good to see original type parts used here. There are so many T's with hardware store carriage bolts. I notice too, you have a nice '15 style hub. Are you going to run ball bearings?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 09:54 am:

Looking into the encyclopedia, I found that this is the hub used for about a year between March 1917 (3\4" depth for outer bearing, 51/4" overall length) and June 1918 (end of speedometer shoulder & holes).





Given the short time they were used, I'm surprised there are so many of them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 10:06 am:

Larry,

Yes, I am using ball bearings in the 1915 front wheels, and always have.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 11:45 am:

Don't forget to peen the hub bolts. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 03:32 pm:

Steve,

If you don't care 100% for authenticity, the hub you've got there is actually stronger than the correct one. Those hubs with the short shoulder behind the hub cap threads have been known to sometimes break just where the short shoulder meets the necked down area. I've seen it happen to a car on tour and have heard of others. Not saying it's really common, but it does sometimes happen.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Tuesday, April 07, 2015 - 12:05 pm:

Val - In your post above on March 27th at 8:48pm, you mentioned that you've turned the shoulder down on hubs that have the wide shoulder to achieve the narrow 1/8" shoulder on the '14 and early '15 style hubs.

Considering what Jerry described in his post just above about hubs breaking in this area, doesn't this weaken the hub, and have you had any broken hubs like Jerry described?

Also, have any measurements been made of the hub thickness just to the outside of an original narrow shoulder hub compared to a wide shoulder hub that has been turned down and made into a narrow shoulder hub? I'm wondering if the thickness in these two dimensions is the same or if the hub that has been turned down is much thinner.

This could be a serious safety issue.

Thanks, Keith


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