Anti-freeze substitute???

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Anti-freeze substitute???
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James R. Booth, DeRidder, LA on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 07:58 pm:

I thought I had finished work on my 26 Touring when I installed my new Bergs radiator and filled it with anti-freeze. A few days later I noticed a small pool of anti-freeze on the garage floor which I traced back a small seep through the block (between the 3rd and 4th cylinder). After cleaning it up I confirmed it had in fact found a small crack which was not evident with straight water. I patched the crack with JB Weld. I now notice the motor is running rough and I fear it has found a way through the head gasket into the cylinder. Now to my question. I wanted to use anti-freeze for the rust protection it offers. I was aware of the fact it will find the smallest of cracks. I have read of people using some type of oil with straight water to achieve similar rust protection. Does anyone have experience or knowledge of this and if so what kind of oil should be used in what quantity?
Any advise/comments are requested.

Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 08:12 pm:

Do you have any concerns the coolant is finding its way into the third or fourth cylinders and causing the rough running? Perhaps the crack is more than what could be patched on the outside of the block with JB Weld. If it's found its way through the head gasket then your head gasket isn't sealed. Antifreeze doesn't just seep unless there's a bit more of a problem then your describing. Perhaps it might be a good idea to pull the head off and give the block a little better look-see. Just saying...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sullivan on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 08:57 pm:

Machine shops commonly use "soluble oil" they can tell you where to get it. Only takes a little. DS


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 09:00 pm:

They do make an additive that has all of the corrosion protection but is not antifreeze. I use it in Florida where I don't need to worry about freezing. It is made by Prestone but there are other brands as well. Unfortunately, it is not easy to find.
I would first make sure that you don't have a leaking head gasket or a crack that is allowing water to get into the cylinders. With antifreeze in the cooling system do you get any white smoke and/ or a sweet smell from the exhaust? If not, your rough running might not be related to your using antifreeze.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 09:01 pm:

The anti rust soluble oil really isn't a freeze preventing substitute. But in FL I don't worry on cracking a block or busting a radiator.

So any auto parts store will have the soluble oil, Prestone brand, have used the Gunk brand. Any work ok, and use distilled water. But be sure to drain, flush, are refill annually , as you will be surprised on how the T block is rusting away just with coolant in the block. When you drain you will find ruddy red brown coolant :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 08:09 am:

James, the right answer is to fix the problem. The symptoms sound like a blown head gasket. Perhaps there was a bit of oil on either the head or the block when it was assembled? Those surfaces need to be carefully degreased before installing a head gasket. The gasket should be coated with KW Copper Coat or flat aluminum lacquer before installing it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 09:46 am:

James: are you saying you installed a new rad, anti freeze and patched a drip and because of that the car's not running right? Guess again and don't pull a "Forum Mechanic" and start tearing everything down without some calm sane diagnosing. 1: antifreeze cooking in cylinders will billow white smoke out the tail pipe. 2: There's a good chance you'll smell it too. 3: What do the plugs look like? Coolant will give a different appearance. 4: Forget the oil business. It will solve nothing. My point is changing to anti will not affect the running as opposed to water and plugging an outside crack isn't going to force coolant into a cylinder. Could you head gasket be gone? Sure but not because of anti freeze. Check the timer. Make sure you didn't whack any thing when changing the read.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 10:13 am:

rad


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 11:09 am:

Charlie B, you're right on the money when it comes to checking for the white smoke and the off-color spark plugs. And assuring the timer didn't get bumped and the timing is out of whack. I assume James will follow your line of thought.

I still have trouble with the fact a crack showed up on the block the way it did. I realize the quality of the 100 year old casting could be suffering. Even in this day and age with our computers and process monitoring devices we still find voids (porosity) and cracks in castings. I doubt Henry had much opportunity to perform a lot of nondestructive testing. But he still managed to produce some pretty good product.

But, there's something a bit odd that a crack suddenly showed up the way this one did. Whether he used water or antifreeze, the leak was bad enough to make a "small pool" on his shop floor. Hmmm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 02:28 pm:

Believe it or not there's a "taste test" too. In certain weather conditions you won't see smoke but it there's condensate dripping from the tail pipe you can touch your finger to it and just touch it to the tip of your tongue. It'll have a sweet taste. That's anti freeze. Saw an old timer do it centuries ago and tried it myself. Thought he was nuts but it works.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 02:33 pm:

I know. My Dad showed me that years ago. It's really sweet but don't put it on your oatmeal. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 02:54 pm:

Ouch, ethylene glycole is really poisonous and causes kidney failure. A toxic dose is as low as 0.1 ml per kg body weight, that's 16ml for a 80kg adult or about 0.5 Oz for a 176 lb man.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 05:53 pm:

Some of the early farm boys used kerosene as a coolant, didn't rust and didn't freeze. When you wanted to get going with assurance the car would start kerosene was a good choice. It probably is not as good a heat transfer as water or ethylene glycole but at 20 - 30 below I don't think it mattered too much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 06:16 pm:

Here's a discussion of Kerosene as a coolant on a tractor forum:

http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/ttforum/viewtopic.php?p=3590292&sid=26a6836 3ff21c8401bcdd62e06fe81b8


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James R. Booth, DeRidder, LA on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 10:07 pm:

It seems some are reading to much into this. More by way of explanation. I installed the new radiator - a piece of cake, did not touch anything and in fact, I got a free start which is relatively common (about 1/2 of the time). I have never used anything but water in the radiator because I did not want to drip anti-freeze where animals might get to it. Engine has never missed and has always run perfectly. I bought a new Bergs radiator, filled it with anti-freeze (green Prestone) because I wanted the rust preventative features and on the very first trip, after about one mile, the engine started to miss and sputter. Not really a big problem I thought as I returned to my yard and parked it in the garage. It was a few days later I noticed the antifreeze leak . Now this was no ordinary leak - the anti freeze seemed to seep right through the metal where there had never been any sign of a leak with plain water. I wiped the green liquid with a rag and watched in amazement as another droplet formed where there was no crack evident. Now I have heard about the slickness of anti-freeze, even read about it on this Forum, and how it will find the most minute hole. I merely thought that since it has found its way through the block where no leak was previously evident that perhaps it had found a way between the head and block causing the rough running. The head gasket is one of those new composite types installed without permatex. copper coat, etc. The anti-freeze has been drained and I am not going to refill it with anti-freeze to see if the rough running persists. I did not look for exhaust steam/smoke of smell it. I am wanting to refill the radiator with plain water to see if my patch in fact stopped the leak and if the rough engine has stopped. I was merely asking for experience with something other than anti-freeze that would help to slow down the rusting process and Dan Treace has provided the answer - Thanks Dan, you have previously responded to my queries and I do appreciate your input. Anyway, if the engine runs smooth when I return to straight water all is well. If it continues to run rough I will change the head gaskets. Thanks all for your input. Incidentally, I am in Louisiana so freezing is not a problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 09:51 am:

Just throwing darts in the dark trying to guess why it started running badly after a rad/coolant change. Sounds like you did OK with your work but again what you did (as described any way) wouldn't cause rough running out of the blue so to speak. For the sake of argument lets say it is a head gasket. Checking the condition of the plugs would still be #1 in tracing that problem. While their out a compression test is in order although an EXTREMELY tiny coolant/head gasket leak might not show a large difference between cyls. at all. My point: check ignition & fuel systems before doing any head work for poor running.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 10:59 am:

Hi Jim,

Just for grins, have you tried re-torquing the head bolts? Good luck with your diagnosis. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 11:13 am:

James

If I read your last detail correctly, seems you used 100% coolant (Prestone) in the entire cooling system? Technically, not more than 50% anti-freeze should be used, it's a 50/50 mix with water that provides the protection.

Could be with 100% anti-freeze the T didn't get up to operating temp, and you experienced some rough running from too cool an engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 11:28 am:

With 100% anti-freeze (ehylene-glycol) the engine will tend to run warmer than normal due to the poor heat transfer properties of pure anti-freeze. It needs to be diluted w/water for proper cooling.

YMMV

Talk slow, think fast.


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