We are getting quotes this week on the transmission bushing's right off the Ford print all will be the original formula in Z bronze
we used to make the triple gear bushing's in z bronze
now all will be
I have been talking with Steve Coniff and we will be making them the right hardness as well, these will be a bit more costly than the ones on the market now but well worth it, please let me know if anyone is interested in these, Bob
I'm very interested Bob.
What would be the anticipated delivery time on them? In the next month or so I am planning on rebuilding my 1917 engine.
Do you have the Z Bronze triple gear bushing in stock?
I am meeting with the company on Thursday so after I get the quote then I will know delivery time, no we have been out of the z bronze bushings for about 6 years so now they will all be correct, Bob
Sound great! I definitely want a complete transmission set when it comes available.
Great News! Love parts made to the specs
Bob, it is about time some one has stepped up to make them correct, nothing worse than boring one now and it does not clean up since there is not enough material originally! Thanks again!
I thought Z bronze triple gear bushings were made by Bob's since at least 10 years?
Did you stop making them?
Lang's has an answer to a customer's question saying their bushings are made of "Z bronze" - is theirs from somewhere else than Bob's?
This is good news.
Will the ID be smaller, one problem with what we get today is there always a chance the present ones will not clean up after pressing in.
We used to make the z bronze and due to what happened here with family issues we stopped a while back, Langs buys them from us but do not know if he ever changed his wording, yes these will have plenty of stock to clean up, there is one dealer making these bushings now but not like the ones on the Ford print, so I will be making them again, Bob
all 5 bushings will be correct
I will need to sell a lot of these as I will have to make about 500 sets plus extra triple gear bushing's
Put us on the list, too! We have seen problems with what is available at present. We would pay more for Ford spec parts.
Thanks Bob. People have been upset with the bushings for years, and finally they are going to be done right. It's funny though, I rebuilt the transmission in my T in the early '60s and used bushings right off the shelf of Ford Parts Obsolete, and they are still in the car after 50+ years and 50,000 miles.
Ok so I am curious. I have seen many shots of the original Ford drawings on the forum and I am wondering where people are getting them from? I would love to take a look at them if the they are available.
You can order prints from Benson Ford Research Library. They are not free.
You pay more if you are making commercial parts from the prints. You pay less for 'research' usage. That is why I post only partial, as posting the whole print is disallowed in my acknowledge signed for usage rate.
Order Parts drawings here:
You must know the factory #, not the Part # found in catalogs.
Hey Dan, many thanks for the link!
What is "Z" Bronze?
Something that has magical and mythical properties only ever understood by Wills and Wandersee and never anyone else including world renowned metallurgists...
Started becoming un-obtainium with the launch of the V-8 circa 1932...
For heavy applications such as Model T spinning triple gear bushings, anyone using modern bronzes of any grade (and the debate is endless) and actually trying to machine to the original Ford prints has a 99.99999% chance of swallowing that rebuilt transmission in the first 50-150 miles!
Over the years, there is one bronze of modern availability that comes close enough in use (but still always forum debate fodder) yet needs to be machined half-wore out in order to have half-a- chance of working and giving you the next 15 - 20,000 miles. This 'variance' creates a vortex of swirl because certain guys can do it only 1/3 wore out, other guys can do it 40% wore out, other guys half wore out yet other guys need to do it at theoretical wore out, and other guys can't drill a straight line let alone try for anything precision yet seem to think they can! This then becomes the Hatfields and the McCoys as a good portion want to scream 'It's only a T for heavens sake' while the other half knows that the closest thing in a T to a Swiss-watch IS the triple gear-set!
Hope I have not confused you, but Bob B and Bob B late Dad have been supporting T's for a bunch of years, decades on decades, even if they have to custom do things to make parts. Present Bob is trying to build the business bigger, and the one Segway is he feels he can get Z Bronze apparently custom smelted somewhere. He has apparently enlisted the help of the guy who has the 'tighest' success in other bronzes...and this could be so important a 'find' that even the traditional boo-birds are sitting back yet whispering 'go for it!'.
Thanks to Steve Coniff we have the original formula and the company who will be making them make their own formula and say they will use Fords original formula and we are taking a nos bushing and testing the Rockwell so this should be the best bushing's made and in the U.S.A. Bob
Thanks Bob. Maybe this discussion will finally come to an end? There are people out there who are reaming out the new bushings to .005, when the Ford Service Book tells you to replace them with that much clearance! Makes no sense.
Bob, Please make them exactly to the print and especially make the width and depth of the oil grooves on all the trans bushings exactly as they are shown on the Ford prints.
Repro bushings I've seen over the last few years have really bad oil grooves. The brake drum bushings have a very incorrect spiral on them and the low and reverse bushings have oil grooves so deep that the bushings distort badly when you push them in. As a matter of fact, the low bushing has oil grooves so deep that the material in the bottom of the grooves buckles when you press it in and there is not a correct "fit" when installed. When they started coming thru like this I realized they were unusable and the only option was to have a batch of correct low bushings made to the Ford factory print that are many times the cost of the repro bushings... I'm almost out, so your timing is perfect!
Also, please realize that some Ford drawings are for parts used only "at the factory" and that some drawings of the same thing are for parts only used in "service". The difference being how the parts are to be final machined. Some trans bushings may have been broached at the factory while trans bushings would be reamed at service garages. I'm suspicious that there could be widely different dimensions depending upon what drawing you happen to get hold of.
Also, use the material spec on the print for hardness. I wouldn't trust a NOS Ford anything to be made correctly unless I tested 10 of them all obtained from different sources and they were all the same. Seen plenty of genuine Ford parts that obviously weren't made right to trust that they got it right all the time!
I would also like to be able to purchase triple gear bushings that are .002"/.003" oversize on the outside dimension only.
I think there could be a real market for these. Just about every other original trans I take apart has at least one bushing spinning in the triple gear and the bore of the gear is .000"/.001" over the bushing and not a good press fit. I've unfortunately had to discard quite a few otherwise very nice gears because of this.
If "setup fees" are a problem for this, maybe some could be ordered "un-machined" on the outside dimension?
Bob's Old bushings were 660 bronze, C93200. They worked just fine in spite of unfounded complaints. 660 bronze has the same formulation as Z bronze but has a little more lead.
Z Bronze: C92300 Copper 85-89, Tin 7.5-8.5, Zinc 2.25-4.25, lead 0.75-1.75.
660 Bronze: C93200 Copper 81-85, Tin 6.3-7.5, Zinc 2-4, lead 6-8.
Today, Snyder's bushings are made with Lead-Tin Bronze C92300. They won't get on here and tell you that in defence of their bushings because of all the negative comments that always occur on this forum, but I will. This is todays equivalent to Z Bronze and has the same number. I assume this is what Bob is using today. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Lead-Tin Bronze: C92300 Copper 85-89, Tin 7.5-9, Zinc 2.5-5, lead 0.3-1.
This is the closest you can get to Z bronze today. I have built many transmissions using all of these bushings and have never had a single problem. The secret is giving the bushings enough clearance. I have been called stupid for saying this but we use 0.004 thousands clearance for all bushings. We need more clearance today than back then because we drive much faster and the bushings get much hotter. We have never had a seizure on a pin. So go eat that!
we just got the quotes in and I am going over them these will all be Ford's original formula and the price will be higher, before I go ahead and do this just wanting to know how many people are willing to pay the additional cost to have these made like Ford did, or should I just go with the triple gear bushings
retail will be 110.00 a set
please give me your thoughts, Bob
I am in Bob.
P. Jamison asked a pretty good question, and with all of the "nuances and innuendos" and discussion, I really still don't know what "Z bronze is! Because what it's actually made up of (which Glen Chaffin explained) really does not answer the question in my mind, so I'm going to ask it a bit differently:
The actual composition of "Z-bronze" really doesn't matter to me. What I'd like to know is, what "magical and mythical properties" as George put it, does Z bronze have that other bronze does not, and why will that make a better triple gear bushing than just plain old garden variety bronze? I'm sure that other "inquiring minds" besides mine would like to know,.....???? Thanks to anyone who can explain this in words and terms that even I can understand,......harold
I'm in, for at least 2 sets
IM still in for a set now for my 14 and one in the future when I rebuild my 23 next year.
Thank you guys aprox. 7 weeks on delivery, Bob
Thanks Bob! Looking forward to getting them!
Bob,I think I would rethink that quote. There was nothing wrong with 660 bronze C93200 other than the guys were using too tight a clearance. It worked just fine for us. Snyder's is now using C92300 which is the present day Z bronze at $51.00 per set. So why bother? I have never had a problem with either one. The die hard purists believe that they can use 0.002 clearance. That is bull. We do not drive the cars at 25 MPH today and 50 MPH needs more clearance because of the heat created. So just use 0.004 clearance and you will not have any problems with Snyder's bushings.
I know because I have rebuilt many transmissions that were set up at 0.002 and they all failed. None of our rebuilds set up at 0.004 failed. I have been called stupid by the 0.002 purists. But we know who is stupid.
I once got a job rebuilding a transmission that had seized. The bushings (all of them,not just the triple gears) had been done at 1.5 to 2 thousands. Opened them up to 3 to 4 (fortunately, none of the bearing surfaces had been damaged beyond polishing out) and have not heard back again--and that was 15 years ago!
Some steam locomotive restorations have a similar problem--holding ancient stuff to modern clearance standards--it doesn't usually work out!!
The experts are stuck in the dark ages. Yes, Ford did things a certain way and used clearances applicable to those days and speeds. But today we drive the cars much harder and much faster and this requires more clearance if you want the car to survive. The truth is the bushings have never been the problem even when we were using 660 bronze. Todays C92300 is the same as the Ford Z bronze so we do not need to recreate something at a higher price that already exhists at a reasonable price. Z bronze is a good tough bearing material but I have seen several original Z bronze bushings seize when the car was driven hard. The problem today is not the bushings but the so called experts that just don't know what they are talking about. They are stuck on 0.002 clearance because that is the way Henry did it. Well, neither Henry or anyone else back then ever drove the car at 50 MPH. The car was never designed to go that fast and that is why they were a 20 Horse Power engine. But just be thankful that we can soupe them up today and go 50 MPH, but you must give them more clearance to do that. I don' claim to be an expert at anything and cringe when I hear someone claim to be an expert. But, I do have a little experience and know what works.
C93200 is the same as SAE 660 bearing bronze according to what I read. I've used SAE 660 on some Perfecto bushings that correspond to Ford's transmission drum bushings without a problem, but where side thrust is great, there are certainly better bronzes. EG, the pin bushings that hold the triple gears in either a Perfecto or Ruckstell. Its not rocket science, just check out the specs on the different bronzes available. I now make my own pin bushings out of phosphor bronze (C54400) and have eliminated the concern.
After my experience with Perfectos, I don't trust using 660 (C93200) as triple gear bushings in Ford transmissions. I have no dog in this race, so do what you like.
Richard, We don't use 660 bronze C93200 any more. But when we did I never had a problem as others did because I used 0.004 clearance. Others used 0.002 clearance and most of them had problems. I have the original Z bronze specs. Actually, there are several Z bronze specs and they are all slightly different. I have them all. Todays C92300 bronze is as close to Z bronze as you will ever get and it all depends on which Z bronze spec you look at. They all have slight variables but they are so slight that you can say they are all the same. These small difference are not going to determine what fails and what doesn't. As I said any of these bushings are going to fail no matter what bronze you use if you do not give them enough clearance. I can't seem to get this through the experts heads but it is the truth. It is no different than setting piston clearance too tight. If you do they will seize.
Maybe I will drop the whole f---- thing, Bob
Bob, I don't want to discourage you but it's like reinventing the wheel and raising the price. If what Snyder has told me is true there is nothing wrong with their bushings and they are using the right material. Sounds like your material supplier wants to supply you with a readily available bronze at an inflated price and telling you that they are giving you a special formulation. That is not true. I have the formulas if you want copies.
Bob: Go ahead with your project! If people wish to ream their bushings to the point where Ford says to replace them, let them do it!
Larry, Ford said replace them if worn over 0.005. I stress over 0.005 and 0.005 does not cause a problem. I would rather have a transmission that is reliable and gives me good service than one that seizes up. There are countless examples of transmissions seizing because of bushings that are too tight so why argue the point?
Bob, I rechecked with Snyder's. They are using the C93200 Z bronze for the triple gear bushings and the C92300 660 bronze for the other bushings. This works very well if you use 0.004 clearance. The Z bronze is more expensive and that is why they did it that way. The triple gears are the only ones that give us trouble because of their speed and load factors. I have had no problems with your old bushings or Snyder's,. Clearance is the critical factor , not the bushings.
Just to add one point. The reason 660 bearing bronze didn't work well in the Perfecto triple gears and the pin holes is the side thrust enlarged the bushings. Its not a seizure problem, its a toughness problem. I agree that .004" or even more is good practice on the triple gear bushings. My concern is that the 660 bearing bronze is too soft for the side thrust of the Model T triple gears. If both Glen and Synder say that 923 (not 932, which is 660) holds up and is close to Z bronze, I'll try them. Its both time consuming and expensive to make triple gear bushings from phosphor bronze.
Richard, We have been using 660 bronze bushings to fix the pin holes in P160 for over 40 years with no problems. It is a good tough high speed bearing bronze, Bunting Part no. CB810-8. See no reason to change.