How do you get a rag out of the transmission?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: How do you get a rag out of the transmission?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jon Allen on Saturday, April 04, 2015 - 07:55 pm:

Ok, you guys! I am sure this has happened to some of you. My transmission ate a rag that was inadvertently left in there after adjusting bands. The rag was up in the front part of the tranny stuffed down in there. It has totally disappeared. When the engine runs on idle, there is a laboring sound as it turns over. My suspicion is that it is down in the planetaries.

So, have any of you had this, and if so, what did you do. I have it on good authority to take the hogshead off, but before I dive into that frustrating project, I would like to hear suggestions from you guys.

Any thoughts (not too insulting) appreciated.

Thanks and Regards,
Jon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Saturday, April 04, 2015 - 08:32 pm:

Geez Jon, it's difficult to suggest anything but taking the hogshead off. There's a pretty good chance that thing is a bit ground up and even if you get the majority of it out it can still hang up on your magneto pickup and kill your mag or worse yet get into the inside oil tube and plug it. I could go on with other related disasters but my advice is to break out the wrenches and do you best to get it cleaned out. I really don't envy you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Saturday, April 04, 2015 - 08:46 pm:

Sorry but Michael has it right, pull the cover and get it all out. No good can come of pieces of rag floating around in there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Saturday, April 04, 2015 - 08:58 pm:

Mike Walker may have some experience in this area.Perhaps he will chime in here.(LOL)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Story on Saturday, April 04, 2015 - 09:11 pm:

I bought a car that had just been over hauled,Engine got to where it wouldn't pull itself. couldn't turn it over with crank. Found out it was full of rags,oil did not splash as should, burned up engine and transmission $5000 later I was good to go.
Gene


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Yoder, Iowa City IA. on Saturday, April 04, 2015 - 09:25 pm:

I did the same when adjusting rods. Required a complete tear down. No damage to mine but the transmission still had paper rag felt in it a year
later when i rebuilt it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Saturday, April 04, 2015 - 09:30 pm:

When I was deployed, I often played out a scenario of being forced to
find my way to safety after being separated from my unit or some other
bad situation, considering various options and how I'd deal with them.

I often put my head back in that place when I am faced with a b!tch
situation like this rag-in-the-engine, and it puts things back in perspective
about what a real problem is. Somehow, working in a comfy shop with
all the right tools, heat, and a workbench sounds pretty good by comparison.

Now go have fun ! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, April 04, 2015 - 09:38 pm:

Pull the hogs head and the engine inspection pan. Thoroughly inspect everything for parts of the rag. Then pour some oil down the funnel and see if it comes out in the front of the engine. If not, pull the timing gear cover and run a fish line up through the oil tube. It is important to get all the parts of rag and lint out of the system so that it doesn't block the oil passages.
I am very sorry for you and the problem you have, but it is much better to do more work than necessary, than less.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Saturday, April 04, 2015 - 09:39 pm:

Even if you are able to get the rag out, I'd be worried about the fibers it left behind. Wouldn't take much to clog up the oil line to the front of the motor.

Don't feel too bad Jon. You probably saved every person who read this thread from doing the same thing. So for that, a collective thank you is in order.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, April 04, 2015 - 10:23 pm:

Jon, No good news from me either. I did the same thing. I had to do a total teardown of the engine to get it all out. It was in the trans drums, and inside the clutch plates, The oil tube was packed full, and the rags even bent the oil tube. There were small chunks in the cam gears, the oil holes for the mains were full, ect ect ect ... In my opinion I do not believe it is possible to get it all out with out a total tear down ... Sorry for no good news .. :-( :-( but if it is any consolation for you. I have been in the exact same place, and so have many others. My main "words of wisdom" would be to "count the rags going in, and count them coming out" respectively submitted Donnie Brown ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Patterson. Moruya, NSW, OZ on Saturday, April 04, 2015 - 10:26 pm:

This is all that remains of a rag that fell into the transmission through the starter hole, when the engine had just been rebuilt. It was slowly getting harder to start and it too started to labour after a while. On inspection the rag had been chewed up thoroughly and was spread right through the engine and trans.
I had to pull the hogs head and the 3 dip inspection plate. Give it a THOROUGH cleaning, and just when I thought that was all of it, more would turn up. Eventually after about 6 months of pulling the floorboards and the trans inspection plate after every outing and after several oil changes, I was confident it was all gone. Thank heavens for the after market trans oil strainer I installed. It works a treat.
I keep the remains of the rag in the jar on the shelf in my workshop to remind me that I am indeed a clutz sometimes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Saturday, April 04, 2015 - 10:46 pm:

Its amazing all the punishment we put ourselves though to save those damn nuts from falling into the great abyss. When i did my bands, i used an old sheet that my wife didn't account for, and stuffed the whole thing around every nook and cranny. One piece in, one piece out. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Saturday, April 04, 2015 - 11:15 pm:

Jon, I would suggest you pull the engine out. The rag is shredded up and fibers are going to be all over everything inside the engine and transmission. You will never get all of the rag out without pulling the engine and if anything plugs a main bearing oil hole or the oil line your engine is going to be damaged if it isn't already.This is exactly why I don't put rags into my transmissions. Sorry that this happened.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lonnie Smith Baxter MN on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 12:41 am:

From the first time I saw someone do it, stuffing rags in the tranny always seemed like a bad idea to me. Seems like even if you do pull the rag back out there is always fluff/crap from the rag that will stay in there. I've never done the rag trick on mine and don't plan to. I would rather loose a nut in there myself, at least it's magnetic and it will be on the bottom when you go get it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 12:49 am:

What exactly is "the rag trick" ? ... to provide a plug to keep things
like nuts and bolts from falling in ??? If so, wouldn't a simple piece of
floor vinyl or similar material laid OVER the hole be a better plan ? Or
maybe just put the cover on loosely ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lonnie Smith Baxter MN on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 12:53 am:

The rag trick is basically to stuff the tranny full of rags so that a nut will not fall all the way to the bottom of the tranny when you are adjusting/replacing bands. When done you have to pull all those rags back out and hope none of them left any chunks in there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 09:21 am:

And COUNT the number of rags you put in so you know how many have come OUT!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 09:23 am:

Check your oil tube. That will require pulling the timing cover off. Friend of mine got an engine back from a rebuild and the rebuilder had left a rag in it. It ended up much like the one in Rob's jar and then completely clogged the oil tube. First main was cooked as a result.

I question the ability to get it all out without pulling the engine and taking the pan off.

Good luck either way though!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 09:28 am:

Man! Now I wonder which is worse! Dropping one of the band washers or leaving rags in the transmission to keep from losing the washers 'down there'.
Just goes to show anything can happen when opening up the transmission.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Peterson on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 09:38 am:

The best way to prevent this is to use your old bed sheets. Cut off just enough to fill the space. You have a nice white back round to see any thing you dropped, does not shed, and is only one thing to remove. I have done it many times. Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 10:14 am:

I like the "one rag" "bed sheet" idea ...... :-) :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 10:22 am:

And a word of caution: take the key out of the switch and put it in your pocket. Going into the transmission is a task that needs to be done with a lot of regard for safety and doing things right. Bumping that key and watching it fall into the transmission is a tough thing to go through.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jon Allen on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 02:00 pm:

Gosh! Thanks. (I think?). That's what I was afraid I would hear. The only good news is that the car has not been run for any length of time above idle. I just heard it laboring twice, and shut it off immediately. So maybe the contamination has not spread too far.
My first job will be to pull the hogshead and engine inspection plate to see what is in there. I will also clean out the oil line.
Rob Patterson,
It sounds like you did not pull the engine and got away with it. I guess this is a "feel your way" kind of job to see how it goes.
Thanks & Regards,
Jon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 02:05 pm:

Do it right and for piece of mind, pull the engine and remove the pan. You will have pieces of the rag in places you did not know it could get to. The fact that you ran it twice assures even distribution.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 02:07 pm:

I stuff rags in the tranny too, but after forgetting one I now tie a small rope about 4 feet long to a corner of each rag and leave the ropes hanging out.
I stuffed a rag in the rear of the trans when we were changing the 4th main.
It was 15 years ago, or more, so I don't remember much about it but after several oil changes and a lot of slow, easy driving it got chewed up so much that we felt it probably wouldn't cause any damage.
If you pull the engine and transmission you will never be sorry later that you did it now.
You really need to take the planetaries apart to make sure all the little rifle patches are out.
I would worry about main bearings mostly.
The rods will still get oil in the sides like always if you have dippers added.
I'd say a good outside oiler line would be a good thing to add. And check it for lint and junk often.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 06:25 pm:

Only once stuffed rags in the trans for band changes, even then thought it was a bad idea.

So got the fancy nut/washer wrench and used it, until years ago learned of the 'dental floss' method.

So no rags, or special wrench. Carefully loop and tie dental floss the washer and nut in tandem as they would be placed on the pedal shafts. Long length looped outside the crankcase and secured.

Feels good to have a string on those things, laced on the stringer, like a fish, and can't flop loose and back into the darkness of the abyss :-)




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 09:18 pm:

Also tie dental floss onto the band spring if you're going to be pulling on the pedal shafts (unless you enjoy fishing expeditions!). :-)


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