What Oil?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: What Oil?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Fusi on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 06:01 pm:

What crankcase oil wt are you guys using?

Ever heard of fuel getting in the oil via too rich a mixture? (I mean a lot of fuel not just some vapors & drips).
this is a new motor and we breaking it in.
I just noticed I was leaving a trail of quarter size oil drop down the road. So I went to check the oil level .... WTF!!!!!!!!!!!! I removed 2.25 cups of oil from the top level valve. From the drips on the road (approx. 4 miles) probably another 1/2 cup + was in there too.

Changing the oil now but not sure the extra volume was fuel. Pretty sure it isn't water, no brown/white froth. The old oil seemed thin but not that thin??? It was still warm from the trip around the block.

any thoughts welcome, we are newby to the Ford Curse.

thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 06:06 pm:

I use 5W-30, which ever brand is cheapest.

I don't know if you are aware, if water gets into the crankcase the oil will float on it. There's not any way that you can get that much gas in there with an updraft carburetor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 06:49 pm:

How much oil did you put in to begin with? People often open the top petcock and add oil until it comes out from there. That is an easy way to overfill as it takes a fairly long time for the oil to get back to the transmission sump during which time you overfill. I'd drain the oil out and start again with 4 quarts and see what happens. If you have water in the oil it should come out first when you remove the plug in the crankcase. If not then I suspect it was overfilled to start.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 07:12 pm:

As Royce said, 5W-30. Walmart brand works for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 07:13 pm:

PS Its an affliction, not a curse ! ;o)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By HARRY A DAW on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 07:40 pm:

Some say any oil is better than what was available in the day of the Model T and they are correct. I take the approach that there Isent that much difference in cost between the cheapest and most expensive and I am dealing with very old equipment. I choose to run 15-40 Rotella diesel oil. The 15 weight cold and the number of miles the big rigs run between oil changes influenced my choice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Will Copeland - Melbourne Florida on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 07:46 pm:

I use the 15-40 Rotella also. I use 4 quarts at the change and don't add any till it stops coming out the bottom check.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 07:48 pm:

You are right Dave,
after running, if it had water in the oil it would be as you describe, brown or/and white froth, the others saying oil will float on water and water coming out first at the drain plug, would only apply if the engine had sat for a long period for the oil and water to separate again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 08:05 pm:

5w or 10w30. Get it at Auto Zone, Wal-Mart, the Dollar store or etc.
Its way above in quality than what was used in the Model T's era.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Fusi on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 08:54 pm:

Thanks guys for the input.
Paid a shop to reinstall the new motor and break it in. I'm thinking they gave the job to the shop "donkey". 99% sure there is no water in the oil.
Changed the oil, took 3 qts plus a splash.

Driving it to my father in laws funeral tomorrow. Wish me luck.
1921 TT Oberchain Firetruck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 09:06 pm:

The water and oil homogenize and drain out of your engine as one liquid.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 09:51 pm:

Sorry for your loss.

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 11:54 pm:

A quart of gasoline in the oil will make the oil smell like gasoline.
You won't mistake it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John C Codman on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 12:13 pm:

Actually, the major concern should be the amount of zinc (ZDDP) in the oil. For decades, oil companies added zinc as a film strength enhancer. It's major function was to provide an extremely high film strength to protect the cam and valve lifters (tappets). In a typical engine, this is the greatest pressure point. As modern overhead valve engines have virtually all switched to roller-lifter camshafts to reduce internal friction and improve fuel economy, the pressure between the cam and lifter has decreased markedly. The need for ZDDP in modern engines is greatly reduced. The lubricating oil manufacturers have greatly reduced the amount of zinc in most of their oils. In our old flat-tappet engines, we still need the ZDDP. As of about three years ago when I wrote to Shell, Rotella contained the proper amount of zinc. There are still a lot of flat-tappet Diesels out there. Whatever oil you use, be sure that it has plenty of ZDDP. There has been a great amount of discussion about this on the V8 Buick website. I use a performance synthetic with ZDDP.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 12:20 pm:

I SERIOUSLY doubt the need for ZDDP in a Model T. You can compress the valve springs with your fingers. A 60's muscle car? Yes. A Model T? You can if you want, but I wouldn't loose any sleep over the lack of ZDDP in a T engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 12:24 pm:

John, The ZDDP is a concern for newer higher revving engines with much stronger valve springs. Model T valve springs are really soft so the wear on the lobes with flat tappets isn't any concern - there were no ZDDP in the oil when our cars were new.

Ok, They did wear out back then too, so a little ZDDP can't hurt - but it's a bit like the lead in the gas - it was also put there for the needs of later high compression engines and isn't needed in a T engine that revvs below 2000 rpm, the valve seat wear from lead free gas becomes a concern first when you get at 3000 rpm and beyond.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 12:40 pm:

For what it's worth, I've been running modern, ZDDP deficient oil in my 1971 Plymouth GTX with a 440 V8 for several years with no issues. The car was finished in 2001, so the cam and lifters had several years of operation with ZDDP-rich oil before they started phasing out ZDDP. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 12:59 pm:

My son asked about ZDDP when putting a new camshaft into a rebuilt 460 in his F-100. They told him to add a bottle of some sort of zinc rich break-in oil for the first how-ever-many miles and it was supposed be good to go after that even with normal oil, so yeah, I can believe the zinc gets impregnated into the surfaces and no additional is needed after that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 02:16 pm:

Anyone who wants the straight dope on ZDDP should buy the SAE paper on the subject. Just about anytime you read one of these "sky is falling" ZDDP articles in the various old car publications, you almost always find they are written by someone that will benefit financially from the sale of their product.

As stated above, it's more an issue for high revving, high spring pressure applications. Even then, like with Mark's Plymouth, you don't see people dropping cams left-and-right. Once a cam and lifters are correctly broken-in and have created a large contact area, it's not an issue anymore. When a cam is new and the lifters are still dead flat, the contact area is extremely small and a lot of pressure on such a small area is when you see failures.

The diesel oil "fix" isn't a fix anymore since they started putting catalytic converters on big trucks and had to take the ZDDP out of that oil, also. In fact, I think using the additives people sell can be just as risky. As stated in the SAE paper, too much ZDDP can create problems, too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 03:15 pm:

This ZDDP thing has been beat to death on the forum on previous occasions. And I have to admit, I really don't understand it and have not made up my mind about it in regard to the "need" for ZDDP in a Model T Ford.

The general consensus seems to be that with the low valve spring pressure in and Model T engine, it's not necessary. That sounds reasonable to me. But here's where thinking logically about it comes in,.....

I don't think anybody would argue that in time (and miles) a stock Model T camshaft will wear considerably. That's why there are some who advocate setting the valve lash in an engine with a worn camshaft more carefully than to just use the factory recommended .010" intake and .012" exhaust (or whatever it is) but for maximum efficiency and power, to set each one individually timed to the piston,....because of wear to the camshaft lobes.

Now then, here's what's stuck in my feeble mind,....absolutely the only thing that will wear a cam lobe is the contact between the cam lobe and the flat "tappet" or "lifter" or as Ford called it,...the "pushrod". So, weak valve springs or not, obviously, there is always some wear. So the question in my mind becomes,.....even tho' the wear is not as great in a Model T engine, will ZDDP help minimize that wear to the cam lobes or not,....??? If not,.....forget the ZDDP issue. If it will help however, why not use ZDDP oil (or ZDDP additive) if it will do some good, right?

The only conclusion I can come to is that most of the driving we do nowadays as old car collectors, restorers, enthusiasts, etc. is so limited that the ZDDP won't make enough difference to matter in our lifetime,.......??? Does that make any sense? FWIW,.....harold

P.S. I probably should add that my opinions here are strictly made up from information I've picked up by longtime reading of this forum, however, this thought that perhaps if used initially on a newly rebuilt engine (or at least new camshaft) ZDDP would be initially "impregnated" into the surface of the cam lobes and and after that, the ZDDP will no longer be needed (or words to that effect). I have to say that this is the first time I've heard that particular "theory"! (???)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 03:24 pm:

Okay, one other thought,.....sorry guys, but that's just me. When I get into something like this, I just can't seem to let go of it,....so one more thing and I'll try to "shut up"!

Maybe the difference is that the new replacement camshafts like Chaffin's or Stipe are made out out much better stuff than Ford's original equipment camshafts of nearly a hundred years ago. So maybe this would make sense,......

If you are running an original Ford camshaft, it might be worthwhile to use a ZDDP oil or ZDDP additive. If you've installed a new modern camshaft however, maybe in that case, use of ZDDP would be pointless,....??? I don't know,....maybe that makes sense,.....???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 04:23 pm:

Harold,
Most camshaft material used today is 8620. After the camshaft is roughed out, it is copper plated. The lobes/bearing surfaces that are exposed during grinding are heat treated prior to final grind/clean up.

You will see some copper plating left between lobes/bearing surfaces on old model T camshafts.

Possibly someone will know how the camshaft material that Ford used compares to 8620???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 05:15 pm:

I'd be more concerned about using the cheapest recycled oil from a place like the Dollar store in your newly rebuilt engine that probably cost you a pretty penny than the ZDDP issue.

Maybe if you can't afford the extra cost of buying a name brand oil or changing the oil often enough it may be OK. Yes, the recycled or cheapest oil you can find is probably better than oil from the early 20's but I'm sure there is a quality difference between that cheapest oil and the best available today . Last year there was posted a report of oil testing and it was surprising the difference in the scores.

Considering the cost of a new cam and crank plus pistons and babbit and valve guides then add machine work and a bit of labor that new engine runs up to a few dollars.

Don't be cheap with the oil and change it OFTEN.

M2CW


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 05:52 pm:

Consider this : Since the engine & transmission are lubricated with the same oil, as in most 4 stroke motorcycles, why not use the same oil as motorcycles ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom 30 miles N of Memphis TN on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 07:26 pm:

Zddp is an extreme pressure additive. It only provides benefit in extreme pressure situations. The way it works is to treat metal locally and is activated by heat generated under extreme pressure. Without extreme pressure, it does nothing. The valve spring pressure in a T is about 24-28 lbs. To those who wish to tell those of us who don't believe in it that we are wrong, produce facts indicating how it helps in the T rather than opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 07:37 pm:

Dang it!!! I said something that makes no sense in the 4th line of the 4th paragraph in my post above. I meant to say,.....even though the valve spring pressure is not as great in a Model T engine,.....I DIDN'T mean to say,...."even though the wear is not as great in a Model T engine".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n Los Angeles CA on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 03:31 am:

I might be called a heretic and burned at the stake for this. But I'm trying out 20/50 Amsoil for classic cars. Friend of mine who is a dealer recommended I try. They also have 10/40. The reason for trying is a T builder told me he uses 20/50 in all the engines he does. Been running it for two months of driving as much as I can. No problems here or clutch slippage . No new leaks also.
Geo. n L.A.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rodney Aspenson on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 06:26 am:

I have always used Mobile 1 15/50 100% synthetic oil... Better lubrication, cooler running.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 07:24 am:

I attend a show each year where an Amsoil vendor sets up a booth. 3-4 years ago, He left his vehicle idling at the roll up door to the building where his booth is. He was unloading some things and intended to move the vehicle when he was done. As it sat there, it sprung a HELLACIOUS leak of transmission fluid (As I recall). I have no idea whether he used his products in that vehicle and even if he did, I doubt they were responsible for the leak. HOWEVER.......I'm sure it was quite embarrassing for the guy and probably not good advertising.:-)

BTW, I can tell the difference in cranking effort between 10W-30 and 5W-30, I don't believe I'd care to use 20W-anything. To each his own.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 09:46 am:

I've been using 5w30 lately but just bought a jug of Rotella T 15w40 to try as many here have and will see how that goes. The best result I ever had was when I tried Royal Purple 10w40. It made the engine so quiet it was amazing, but I don't like the purple dye in the oil which makes it harder to tell when the oil is dirty and makes the oil leaks look worse than they are. I might switch back to it if the Rotella doesn't work out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 01:26 pm:

I see Rotella is now offering 5-30 also.Bud in Wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stanley L Brown Drury, MA on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 02:02 pm:

Somewhere along I read a quart of ATF along with the regular oil was OK.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 03:08 pm:

A whole quart of ATF might be a bit much. I use no more than 1/2 a quart. It helps to reduce band chatter, although it seems less effective for Kevlar bands versus Scandinavia bands.


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