Blankety-Blank Starter!!!

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Blankety-Blank Starter!!!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 06:20 pm:


Okay, first thing, I want lots and lots of pity. -I'm not proud, so let flow the tea and sympathy.

Here's why: Last year, I lost half the driving season because of an engine gremlin (and after compression checks, overhauling the coils, replacing the harness & plugs and chasing down all the little details like polishing contacts, it turned out I needed a new timer).

I got a couple of days of driving in at the cold end of the season and then my stupid starter quit working. -My starter button appeared unserviceable, so I replaced it. -As in the previous case, my repair didn't fix what was wrong. -I seem to have power at the starter, but it won't engage or make the slightest sound. -The engine can be started by hand-cranking, so there isn't anything jammed up in works. -Would somebody please tell the know-nothing newbie how to diagnose and fix this blankety-blank thing?

But first, I want lots and lots of pity. -:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 06:23 pm:

Did you try rocking the car to see if you were jammed up?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 06:30 pm:

Boo hoo hoo. Pity, pity, pity. But no sympathy. :-)

The starter in my TT never worked so I purchased the two plates needed to blank off the holes. Cheap fix and never had another starter problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 06:42 pm:

Dirty armature, brush problem, connector post broke loose, bad ground, Remove starter and bench check. Do you have a growler to check the armature? If you can crank start it, no need to rock it cause it's not jammed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 06:55 pm:

First of all, thanks for the pity.
Okay, now we're getting somewhere—dirty armature, brush problem. -That's internal stuff and I have an electric motor shop right in my neighborhood, so if necessary, they can do the bench-check and repair. -I guess what I need to know, now, is how to dismount the starter without breaking something or getting baptized in motor oil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 06:58 pm:

Connector post disconnected is my guess.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 07:11 pm:

Be sure to remove the Bendix drive before you try to pull the starter motor out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 07:13 pm:

And be very careful to not lose the Bendix cover screws. They are an odd size and can be difficult to replace.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 07:27 pm:



I presume the connector post you're talking about is the big stud on the starter that the big
cable is connected to? -Do you mean it might be disconnected on the inside of the housing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 07:43 pm:

That's not a stock T starter, Bob. Are you running 12 volt ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 07:49 pm:

Bob

Appears yours is as modern 12v conversion, in the photo is clearly the alum plate to adapt it to the flywheel housing.

Here are some earlier posts on issues with these type non-Ford parts.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/307712.html?1346162437

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/517163.html?1423702465


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 08:46 pm:

#1: Hook up a test lamp to that terminal and MAKE SURE power is actually going to the starter. You may have an internal open circuit causing nothing to happen but make sure first.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 10:00 pm:



read this for tips

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/358616.html?1379953003

spend some money on postage and send the generator out to one of our regular "starter expert" repair people.

What else on the auto is 12 volt? Do you need a 12 v. starter.

Good Luck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 10:01 pm:

Yes, mine is a 12-volt starter (because my '15 was retrofitted with a 12-volt electrical system). -I'm planning to jump the power between the hot terminal on the starter switch and the starter post. -If it doesn't respond, I'll know there's something internal wrong with the starter itself—right?

Now, assuming I need to dismount this 12-volt starter from the engine, how do I disconnect the "Bendix" (whatever that is) from the assembly so I can then dismount the rest of the starter?

Does the fact that I have a 12-volt starter mean I need to dismount it differently than a 6-volt starter?

(Sorry about all the dumb questions, but I want to make sure I do this right.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 10:08 pm:

Put this in your Google search box:

how to remove bendix mtfca

And read the night away...

Good Luck!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 10:11 pm:

Bob

Get the Ford Service Manual first thing. :-)

You can read and review the method to safely remove the Bendix drive, and then remove the starter. Paragraphs 894, 896, 897.










Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 10:31 pm:

A bunch of guys couldn't get a T started. They checked this, adjusted that, all the usual stuff, and nothing was working. Finally a little boy watching them asked, "Does it have gas?" They put fuel in the tank and it started right up.

The fellow who sold me my 1923 touring told me the starter was shot. When I put a new battery in the car, the starter miraculously cured itself.

How's your battery?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 10:36 pm:

And once you figure out how............the end (Over the key) maybe not want to come off without special persuasion...

getting the cart ahead of the horse...you could probably borrow the right Z-tool to do it....but the cheapest and near smallest 2-jaw spring steel Autozone gear puller with a box of rubber bands is just as good...rubber bands to hold the jaws tight because even Harry Houdini is/was not coordinated enough to do both tasks at once in the space available...mount it right it only needs 1/4 turn and the screw end then walks right off..........but do catch the key....its an itty bitty thing...

then its just 4 bolts on the engine side and the starter comes right out.......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 10:50 pm:

I forgot to comment about the "local shop" option. The local guy may be clueless about Model T stuff. After the local expert here failed to fix my generator, I got the MTFCA Electrical System book and did it myself. If it turns out your starter is indeed the problem and you want to hire out the repair, I'd send it to Ron or Brent or one of the other Model T specialists.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, April 10, 2015 - 11:13 pm:

Those things appear to be "junk yard" starters that are then bead blasted, painted, and fitted up with an adapter. Are they then being sold as "new" or "rebuilt"? That would be downright fraud in my book. The pictures posted of the insides look like very old starters with lots of miles on them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Saturday, April 11, 2015 - 01:08 pm:

The only place around here that you're going to find sympathy is in the dictionary. It comes between sh*t and syphilis.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, April 11, 2015 - 01:29 pm:

Mac's catalog webpage link below states:

This is a 12 volt, modern remanufactured Delco-Remy starter which has been fitted with a new aluminum casting to mount to the hogshead. Modern bushings have been machined into the casting to help eliminate oil seepage. This starter gives modern V8 starting power & reliability to the Model T engine


Now that is the words. Maybe 'remanufactured' means coupled to the new alum face plate, and fitted with a few new bushings?

http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_model_t/model-t-ford-starter-motor-12-volt-mod ern-remanufactured-delco-remy-starter.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, April 11, 2015 - 01:47 pm:

Remanufactured is one of those terms like restored and gone through which vary in meaning according to the knowledge and/or honesty of the person using them.

Why was I unsurprised when I saw where these came from?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Saturday, April 11, 2015 - 02:45 pm:

As these 12 volt units seem to be based on relatively newer Delco-Remy units, I would suggest taking it to a local reputable starter/generator/automotive electrical shop in your area. They should have inventory or ready access to the typical stuff that may need replacement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Saturday, April 11, 2015 - 06:04 pm:

Bob, starters are highly overrated! Wish I was back in NY so I could give you a hand. The two cars that I have with starters are the only ones I ever seem to have trouble with and the trouble is always with the starters. I only use them if I stall at a light for some reason and then only if I am concerned about someone rear ending the car while I am in front of it starting it with the crank. It's not usually the starter itself however. Most of the time it is a bad ground, defective switch or a stuck bendix but that is with a Ford starter and a six volt system.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 12:45 am:

Val, if I didn't have three spine surgeries in my logbook, I'd use the hand-crank every time. __Well, before I dive in and start taking things apart, I'm going to double check my continuity and then give that starter a little ball-peen therapy. _One of the few things the know-nothing newbie does understand is that when an electro-mechanical gizmo doesn't work, it's better to use a small hammer before resorting to a wrench.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 10:57 am:

Hope the speed wrench works for you! It certainly is the easiest fix.


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