And are you willing to part with it? It's a demountable rim lug with nut. Mine is chipped more than half way around the hole where the nut head protrudes through the hole.
I will add that the lug is completely removable from the rim. I have a set of eight (Front wheels) but haven't been lucky enough to find any more.
I don't want to say what I thought it was.
William I am still looking, to much junk to sift through! KGB
Will I think I have a few. Give me ten minutes I will go check
Nope. Mine are different
Thought I did but mine are Kelsey. As such, they have the captured nut but are of an irregular ( non symmetrical like your sketch) and have a 'K' on the upper left. Sorry
William. I spotted this on Tbay. Is this what you're looking for?
If that's what you need William, that's exactly what I have. Probably about a dozen. PM me if you're still looking.
Please confirm that you are looking for a loose lug with a captured nut for a rim and wheel that originally came on a Ford USA produced automobile.
Also – do you have the same style on the rear wheels?
From your illustration, I don’t think the lug you are looking for was originally supplied with a Ford Model T car. I may be seeing it incorrectly and if so please confirm it is the 2846C discussed below. But if it is not the 2846C, I think it is more likely an after market lug or a lug supplied with a different make of automobile than the Model T. For the Model T Ford car, I am only aware of two (2) loose lugs with captured nuts that were used by the USA production. [The Ton Truck rear wheel also had one but it was much larger.] One was on the very early 1919 Kelsey style demountable rims. There is a photo of those on page 282 of Bruce’s book and they do not look anything close to your illustration.
The second one was produced by both Firestone and Cleveland for Ford. It is part number 2846C that was used with the 2845C rim that was also produced by both Firestone and Cleveland for Ford and used with some 1922 USA production. Below is a photo/illustration from the 1926 Price List of Parts showing both the 2846C lug as well as the 2846B loose lug. The 2846C goes with the 2845C rim while the 2846B lug goes with the 2845 Kelsey wheel and rim.
Below is a photo from e-bay several years ago. I think, but I do not know for sure, that hose are the 2846C lugs.
Below is a photo courtesy of Steve Shelton showing the 2846C lug holdeing 2845C rim to the wheel. Note the wheel must have the cur for the rim to fit into or the rim will tend to rotate on the wheel and cut the valve stem. Happens more readily on the rear wheels than the front wheels due to the braking and acceleration.
Is it possible you are really looking for a 2846C lug? Or is it possible that your front wheels actually match your back wheels and should have the same rims and lugs that they have?
There is always more to learn and in many cases we don't quite have enough information to provide a better answer.
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I know it probably sounds confusing, but I am not blind. I guess in my head I know what I'm asking for, but seem to make it sound difficult. I appreciate the information.
I have two types of demountables on my my car. The front demountables are a matched set, and the rears a a different matched set.
Fronts are the captured nut style, 2846C part number. The rears have welded lugs on the rims.
So I am looking for the captured nut style for the fronts, as many as I can get as long as they aren't too expensive.
I guess I can take a picture Monday of what I need and go from there.
Pictures can save pages and pages of forum tag.
Did you contact George House? He probably has a barrel of them.
They do come up on ebay now and then, often in a mixed lot with lugs for other cars/rims. Be careful to ensure the felloes you have are fitting with a "cup" where the valve stem goes. This holds the locating lug. Without the "cup" the rim will spin and cut your valve stem.
I have found that the 2845-D rims are not so hard to come by, while the 2845-C seem a bit less common. I have 4 of the former, and one of the latter with my car.
Thanks Hap! For the education and the 'pitchers'. I went out to the Conservatory and rummaged through the parts department and, sure enough, found a bunch of those 2846 C and a few of the 2846 B s. What to sell a few for? Forum friend prices should be reduced from Chickasha prices so I'll let the esteemed assemblage here advise me as to individual price - if you want some, William.
I do want some, yes....going to take a picture now
Here it is: I didn't photo the broken one, but you get the general idea.
Maybe I did photo the broken one, or I have more than one broken
George asked me to post these pictures for him. These must be the ones he has.
Let me go remove one from the car and see if i can photo graph it better.
OK just have to remember to PUT IT BACK lol
Thanks Ken, I just pulled a string of them out of my Chickasha box. Hap, are they the same . . . . or similar?
The box end of the Ford Spark Plug wrench fits this.
For Ken – thanks for posting George’s photos! Also it looks like you gave him a solution for posting in the future. Thank you.
For William and George,
Thank you for the photos. Yes, those lugs that both of you have appear to be the 2846C lug nut for the 2845C rim. Note, there were several lugs back then. Additionally there are oversize lugs available so if they were run loose you could use a larger. I think the odds are in your favor that they are the correct lugs!
Also if you can tell me what it written on the lugs that may or may not be helpful in the future.
William, did you confirm that the wheel/felloe has the cup for valve stem to fit into? You usually do not have to take the rim off to see that the cup was there at one time on the fellow. It will have an additional circle around the valve stem hole on the felloe.
Again thank you all for your help!
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Yes, the wheels have the cups.
But only the front ones. Remember the rears are a different type.
What I drew in the drawing is what is written on the majority of the eight I have. There are a couple that have no writing whatsoever, and I think one is completely different from the rest.
Well, I trekked out to the Conservatory again to see what was written on the lugs. Interestingly, in the upper left corner three had a Roman numeral 1, two had a Roman numeral 111 and one has a Roman numeral 1111. The numerals are about 3/16" tall and in the upper right corner is the number 30 - the same height on all lugs. On the obverse is 'PATS PNDG' - which I take for patents pending.
So what are they worth, guys?
The way I discovered all of this was that my left rear kept going flat. My car has been in the family since 23 and my cousins (long long before me) had turned it into a "skeeter." They had removed the brake rod on the RIGHT side so they could pull up on the parking brake and make the car spin. Apparently they had broken the spokes out of the left wheel and replaced it with another...WITHOUT THE CUP. Thus began my search, and research. I soon noticed the other three had the cup and found one on ebay with it. I had that one rebuilt...problem solved. Then Hap and I began to dig into the history of these rims. Looks like Ford offered them in 22 and 23 before adopting the Hayes rim. The clamp used on the 2845-D is often confused with the clamp for a Kelsey. It is NOT the same. It uses the same nut as the Hayes while the Kelsey rim uses a flat nut. The lug is slightly larger as well.
These rims go unnoticed by the masses but always stir up a conversation with T'ers. I've been told all kinds of things about mine, most of it wrong, but all well intentioned. I think they are kind of cool because they just aren't seen that often...at least by me!
Would it be possible for anyone that has one, just to send me one, let me test it to see if it fits, and then go from there?
Sure, I'd be glad to. What address?
I sent you a private message with my address in it.
and I sent an email to you, after reading yours.
I've responded to George after receiving the lugs and they are too large.
I'm still looking for some or one or a couple of these
William & George,
Thank you both for the continued updates.
It would be nice to document that there are some lugs that have a similar shape but are probably for a larger wheel. William, if possible would you please put the correct size lug and one of the lugs that is similar but too large next to each other along with a ruler and take some photos? Something similar to the series you took and posted above and that I reposted below would show how they both look from the same angle etc. Three shots showing front, side, rear would probably do that. "IF" you see something else that is different please take a photo to show that difference also. That should help us better document the lugs and help others in the future to be able to identify the ones they need at a swap meet etc.
Also if you would confirm the nut size on both of them. As well as the thread size if possible. I.e. does the standard Model T demountable wheel lug bolt work for either or both of them?
A possible source of the correct lug might be Mark at Model T Haven. He sells at retail (he need so feed the family, pay for the gas, pay the light bill etc) but he might have some of them or be able to find some of them for you. His web site is: http://www.modelthaven.com/ and he is often out to swap meets etc. Calling might work better than e-mailing?
Also the major vendors, often have some original used parts. They don't list them in the catalog because there are only a few of the items etc. But you might also try them.
Again thank you for your help!
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OK, here are my findings. I will be sending the larger ones back to Mr. House in the morning.
The two lugs are photographed side by side. Mine is the smaller of the two, definitively made for the Model T rims that I have. The one in the photo is not marked with any identifiable markings, unlike the one that is chipped, which is marked like the one in the drawing at the head of this thread, but is the same shape and size as the one I photographed.
And now, for the images.
Thank you so much for taking the measurements and posting the photos! They are very similar looking but one is clearly too large. If you wouldn’t mind, would you please e-mail me higher resolution copies of those three photos? That should help folks in the future to figure out if the part they find at the swap meet will or will not work on the T.
Thank you so much for digging those out and sending them to William. Just looking at the photos of each lug by themselves, I don’t think I would have figured out how much bigger the other lugs were. I wish I knew which car or truck wheel they would fit. At least now you know one of the ones it does not fit. I will also keep an eye out for what wheel/car the larger lug fits. I looked for a yellow open car with wood spoked demountable wheels on the cover of one of the “Hemmings Classic Car” magazines. But I did not find that one. I would guess but it is only a guess that the larger lug goes with a larger wheel/car.
Thank you and others who have in the past or will in the future help us clarify which parts fit and which ones look similar but are the wrong size, year etc.
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Have you thought about welding yours up?
Might C-car lugs be the same?
Thank you for the e-mail with the photos in a larger size file format.
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I emailed Stephen at Lang's and he was unable to locate any of these. I have not contacted Mark at Haven yet.
Anybody else have a lead on any of them before I proceed further? Maybe I'll get lucky at Hershey OR maybe I'll just have to resort to changing out the rims to standard ones.
I was looking at my friend's Willy's Knight 1915-1917 (can't remember which year) and noticed it has demountable lugs marked "Standard" and the wooden fellow has a boss on it where each lug sits when bolted to the rim. I think there were five to each wheel.