That's a very neat photo Jay. All the tires look low. Is that a bird in the bag?
Sure looks like a '14 false door but maybe the Prest-O-Lite tank is playing tricks on me.
Ken in Texas
Neat picture! It looks like a 13 to me. The windshield is folded forward.
Awesome photo Jay,..carrier pigeon?
(Message edited by Jp_noonan on April 14, 2015)
Yeah, it looks to me like a '14 style body with a '13 style windshield. However I am not an expert on these. I am, however, still learning. I would imagine, just from knowing as much of Ford's history as I do, that there was likely some crossover time on these changes. And the crossovers could have even gone both ways. Parts also did sometimes get changed from time to time, and for various reasons.
Great photo! I like it. Thank you.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
not a bird,i think it is a roll of paper maybe mail bag.charley
Sure looks like a '14 with a left over windshield. I doubt the windshield would have been replaced later as the supports would probably not have been replaced too and those are clearly '13 supports as they do not have the bend necessary to clear the top piece of the windshield when it is folded back.
i don't see the bead at the bottom of the body as 13 has, also 13 trunks don't have a bead at the bottom, looks like 14 body to me. charley
It is difficult to make out but I do believe it has the inside door handle of a '14. '13's would be slick on the inside of the passenger door. There seems to be something there.
'14 style touring cars had '13 windshields on them in July and August of 1913. Hap referred to a Ford Company photo in July 1913 showing a '14 style touring car with a '13 windshield on it and striped wheels.
Hap what do you think?
Ken in Texas
Here's the photo contrast enhanced.
Masked out the crease line in the lower RH corner, converted to greyscale, and adjusted brightness and contrast:
very early 14 ,check out the deep cup on the pan.charley
Those 1914 style cars begin about serial number 290,000 to 295,000. It would be interesting to know the serial on that roadster.
My #312,498 car has a '14 style windshield on it now but who knows what it had in July 1913. They are easy to change out. The running gear on mine is DB and probably like the late 1912 running gear on the runabout.
The gas line is dropping through the splash shield in the right spot but the '13's were also punched at that time.
Anyone else have an early 1914 style runabout or touring with a 1913 serial number less than 348,000?
Ken in Texas
They used up the '13 parts on the '14s. It's unusual to see a teacup pan on a '14. This car appears to be a wide track from the looks of that left front fender.
For Jay – great photo! (Always implied – do you have a higher resolution copy? Understand – probably not.)
For All -- yes, I agree it is an early 1914 roadster.
For Ken – it has been almost 8 years since you purchased your very early 1914 touring. The time has past so quickly. And please verify that you meant 1913 and not 1912 when you typed, “The running gear on mine is DB and probably like the late 1912 running gear on the runabout.” I’m 90% sure that is what you meant. I.e. your car has the wide rear cross member and not the cast brackets for the body on the rear cross member like the 1912 and early 1913 cars had.
Hap l9l5 cut off
You are correct on both counts. Time does pass very quickly.
The running gear was still much as it been since the "model year" began in 1912 was what I was trying to say. That runabout in the photo would probably have the pipe plug engine, teacup pan, two piece drive shaft, fenders, etc. usually found in earlier 1913 cars. My car we discussed has all those features with the new, at the time, wide rear "smooth end" cross member.
A friend of mine has a car near 335,000 that is a 1913 style touring with the smooth wide cross member. I don't recall seeing the short rear cross member under a '14 style car. It could easily have happened but have not seen it.
Eight years ago I believe you referred to an Accession (?) photo of a 1914 style touring taken in July 1913 with a '13 style windshield and pin striped wheels. Do you know where that photo is? I would surely like to have a copy if possible or post if you can share it.
Also, in some of the production notes in the Encyclopedia for mid-July 1913, there were "numerous notes" indicating that the new (1914 body style) was beginning to be used in production.
That is why I added the note in my last post above. There are more of these very early 1914's out there with 1913 serial numbers.
I thought that Ford probably started it with only the touring car style because of the trouble with the weak 1913 design.
However, now we have a picture (of course anything can happen) of a runabout that seems to indicate it may have been both touring and runabout.
The early 1914 touring car body has a bead across the bottom of the center section of the rear tub. I have only seen that feature referred to in a photograph several years ago of another early 1914 touring. My car has that bead.
I can't see any other "1913" features in the photo of the runabout except the pan as mentioned, the windshield and fenders. The 1913 turtles were different from the 1914 but I don't know that you could determine anything from the photo above, bead or otherwise.
That is the first runabout like that I have seen in a photograph. It is likely that these early ones will all have serial numbers in the 295,000 to 330,000 range.
We will probably never know how many "1913" serial numbers were used on 1914 style cars but it certainly started in July 1913.
Royce has made some interesting comments about a similar situation with the "late" 1916 cars with black radiators. Makes for some interesting conversations a hundred years later.
Thank you for all your attention to the details. We do enjoy that aspect of the hobby.
Ken in Texas
no ??? about the trunk 1914!!!!.charley
Ford publicity shot of a 1914 touring with the 1913 style windshield.
Outstanding photo of an old time "farmer line" with the T and driver.
Back in the day, if a person wanted telephone (or power) service and
lived outside the local provider's service area, they had to build their
own line in to a point where the utility would hook them in to their system.
The home-built lines were rarely built to professional standards and
often used anything and everything the builder could find to serve as
line hardware. I have even seen examples where broken off whiskey
bottle necks were stuck on a tree limb and a wire tied off to it !
Great piece of forgotten history in this shot.
Charley -- Thanks! I agree even though I cannot tell from the photo if the rear section is more rounded or not - please confirm that because it has the bead on the bottom of the turtle deck that would indicate 1914 (or later).
Royce -- Thanks! Great photo. I wonder if it is the same or related to the one mentioned below. Note that 50005M tag was used in a lot of Ford Motor Company photos over the years.
Ken -- I think there is a lot more to discover about the 1913 to 1914 transition. To be continued. Note I do NOT have a copy of the photo, but I know it exist as Bruce stated at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc13.htm
JUL 28 1913 Acc. 833, Photo 75, Ford Archives
Photo of 1914-type Touring body with 1913 windshield, and wheels which are striped. (No body striping.) Perhaps Royce can see if the photo has pin striping on the wheels? And often the Ford Motor Company had the date the photo was developed in the lower right hand corner of the photo. Perhaps there is a reference of some kind to the date of the photo? If it was taken after Jul 28, 1913 then it would be different photo for sure or the information in ACC 833 on Photo 75 might be inaccurate.
Hap l9l5 cut off
hap! you don't need to see the back ,13s did not have the bead. charley
We have many shots of this early 1914 Model T touring in the Henry Ford Museum collection. I posted several pictures of this same car on the 1914 Model T thread on the Model T Ford Forum. The front fenders have the reinforcing bead across the rear side, like all 1914 front fenders. There is no pinstriping, which was discontinued months earlier, during FY 1913. As is typical for 1914 Model T production, there are no bills on the front fenders. Billed front fenders were added in FY 1915.
Several high resolution shots of the same car are here:
When did FY 1915 begin? I've seen a lot of '14 cars with billed fenders and 4-rivet mounting brackets.
Hap and charley,
Regarding the bead on the runabout lower trunk edge. Royce has a treasure of photographs on the other site. They are grouped together by style year. There is a beautiful side shot of a 1913 runabout and the bead I refer to on the trunk is there.
I had not looked before I made the comment previously thinking the trunk on the original photo starting this thread was different than a 1913. It is not. We can't see the "sharp" edge corners from the angle the photo was taken but we can see the bead.
Thank you for the picture (s). I had them and didn't know it. When you put that in the "1914" group of pictures I thought it was just an error because you have the same one in the '13 pictures. I did not look close enough and thought you accidently put a "13" in there.
Those may very well have been the photographs Hap was referring to in 2007 and Bruce earlier. I just never saw them. I do see where someone can/might see pin strip on the wheels and that is probably where the comment came from years ago.
Again, the photographs posted by style year 1913, 1914 and 1915 on the other site are really great and an excellent reference. There are some 1914 style cars that are "1913's" and some that are "1915's" but the photos are grouped by style year.
Looking at the photos Royce posted on there for the "1914's" there appear to be at least three styles of fenders for 1914.
1. A no bill, no bead 1913 style fender, (cockpit photo & others). Calendar 1913.
2. A no bill, bead across the wide part fender, (fantastic wreck in a construction trench of a new 1914 car) Calendar year 1914.
3. A billed, beaded fender. Numerous. Calendar 1915.
Does that sound right?
(I am referring to the bead across the wide part of the fender.)
If there was a billed and no bead fender combination I missed it.
Another point that is obvious in Royce's photos is that Ford, or the wheel supplier such as Prudden, striped at least "some" of the wheels during calendar 1913 after strips on the body had ceased. The photos posted provide examples of that, (see above). Maybe it was offered at extra charge. Who knows?
Ken in Texas
as i have said before i have been wrong!!!!!!!!!!.looks like they started the 14 stile trunk earlier than i though,but i have had my hands on about a dozen sharp cornered ones in my 35 years of body building ,but never with a bead.charley
You're not wrong because you know the sharp cornered ones have no beads. I'm the one that just learned something!
The trunk for the 1913's must have been different from the 1912's and it probably has to do with the difference in body width. I may be wrong but the '12 touring is two inches wider than the '13 and '14's.
I was just looking for something that might help identify or date the car in the photo. Factory and early period photographs contain a wealth of information sometimes.
It sounds like some of the trunks for 1913's have no bead there.
Ken in Texas
ken i have yet to see a real 13 roadster with the bead,but they must have made a few with 14 trunks on them late in the year,buy the way 12s didn't have a trunk.charley
Yes, there is a good picture of the first year 1913 trunk in Bruce's book on page 152. Just as you say, there is no bead. I thought some of the '12's had them but I was wrong. The beaded trunks must have appeared by the summer of 1913 very late in the year.
Bruce laid out the order of four different "1914" front fenders. He believed the order of introduction was as follows:
1. The 1913 style no bead, no lip.
2. The 1913 style with the bead across the wide part of the fender.
3. The 1914 lipped fender with the bead across the wide part of the fender. Lip like the 1915 but with four rivets.
4. The l914 lipped fender with the bead across the wide part of the fender and also a bead on the inner apron of the fender with four rivets.
I didn't go back and look at Royce's 1914 pictures but I feel like there were examples of at least three of those styles.
Ken in Texas
The 1915 Model / Fiscal year began on August 1, 1914 with serial number 656064. A 1915 touring built during the period from August 1914 until February 1915 would look like this:
Usually folks in the T hobby believe a car that looks like this is a 1914. Key features of the 1915 touring of this period are billed front fenders with four rivets and cowl lamps with the bracket integral with the lamp.
It is my understanding, that the two first models offered in FY '15 were the center door, and the couplet. The tourings and roadsters didn't come out until around February. I've noted the same persons used for many of Fords publicity photos. I don't know how true this is, but I've also heard that Ford held off on the open cars, because Fisher Body Company claimed they could reduce the weight on the touring by 50 lbs, but needed more time to do this.
I wonder how many women hold the steering wheel like that when they drive. I know my wife does. I'll have to show her this picture.
So if we assume the runabout that started this thread was serial numbered prior to 348,735 (built between July 15 through September 30, 1913), what would you call the runabout that started this thread?
Ken in Texas
(Message edited by drkbp on April 17, 2015)
When did the 3-rivet fender brackets begin?
I really appreciate all your help and support to our hobby. And I know you are aware that you are “going against the grain” of what many have believed for a long time when you are equating the model year with the fiscal year of the company.
While the Fords tended to evolve in many cases more than have a distinct new model year, I don't believe tying the dates to the calendar year or the Fiscal Year would be the best answer either. I do not believe that the Fiscal Year necessarily determines the model year for the Model T Fords or other cars for that matter. I.e. the Model N Ford Runabout was produced generally the same from 1906-1908 and almost identical from 1907 & 1908 [with the carburetor being one of the major changes]. It and many other early cars did not have a single model year but rather were a single Model Style that was sold for several years. Alfred P. Sloan the President of General Motors is often pointed to as one of -- if not the major driving force behind the introduction of the annual automobile model change in the USA which he started during the 1920s. [I know – people hate Wikepedia – but it is easy to find – see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_P._Sloan and from other references I have read in the past that is mentioned in them also.] And I’m sure you would agree that when the brand new 2016s go on sale in the USA most of them will probably become available around the fall of 2015. I don’t know what the current fiscal year is for any of the current automobile companies. But I have never gone to a dealership and had them say – this is the “New Model” because it was made in the “New Fiscal Year.” The new “year model” was new because it was different from the previous year model. Sometimes a lot -- for example the 1908 Model S Roadster, 1908 Model S Runabout, and 1908 Model N Runabout were significantly different from the newly introduced 1909 Model T. And sometimes the “new model year” was just a little different – for example the 1965 vs 1966 Ford Mustang was primarily trim with the same basic body shell etc. The FY may line up the same as model year sometimes – but I do not believe it should necessarily determine the model year.
Note the MTFCI 6th Edition Judging Guidelines would disagree with your conclusion that the FY determines the Model year. They state on page 3 the 1915 model year as Jan 1915 - Oct 1915. And on page 4 of the 1914 section they have, item 380 Factory Number 1091C Dashboard: Stained Cherry wood, varnished. Identical to 1913 ...."
The following is an attempt at “Truth in posting”: On page 1 of the 1915 section the same MTFCI guidelines also state “Assembly plants continued to produce the Touring and Runabout with the 1914 style until the new bodies reach them, possibly as late as April 1915.” We should probably ask Russ Furstow what is meant by that sentence. I would take it to mean I would call a Model T assembled in Mar 1915 that had a 1914 body a 1914 model year car produced in calendar year 1915. But grammatically it could probably also be taken as any car produced after Jan 1, 1915 would be called a 1915 car. But as the expert and compiler of the Guidelines Russ should be able to clarify what is meant. If someone knows him well, please ask him if he would be willing to clarify that. I could also send him an e-mail, but I have not had the pleasure of meeting him in person yet, only the pleasure of reading his excellent articles etc..
And of course Bruce at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1915.htm has: MODEL YEAR DATES: September 1914 (Sedan), October (Coupelet) and January 1915 (open cars) to August 1915. [Hap's comment: And yes we now know that the Sedan and Coupelet bodies that were produced in Sep 1914 and Oct 1914 were prototypes with production and shipping starting a little later.] Fiscal year, August 1, 1914 to July 31, 1915.
I agree that in some cases the “model year” and the “fiscal year” for Ford USA are the same or close to the same. But I don’t believe we should call two cars that are as different as a Aug 1, 1914 to Dec 1914 Cherry Dash touring and a Feb 1915 metal cowl touring both 1915 model year cars. That does not fit with the years of tradition I’ve grown up with. And I know that tradition can cause problems. Several people who said the earth was NOT the center of the universe were killed etc. – even though they were correct. But in this case I think the traditional way we have been defining model year for a long time fits better than making an arbitrary cut off based on the Fiscal Year dates. And to make matters worse – for most of our Model Ts we do not know exactly when they were assembled. If the engine serial number is recorded on the Engine production log at the end of an FY but isn’t installed into the car until the beginning of the next FY does that change the model year?
Again, I really appreciate your work and support to our hobby. And I often wrestle with why we try to make a difference between the 1924 and 1925 tourings since in those cases the cut off that Bruce used was basically the Fiscal Year. And the difference between the touring produced on a few weeks either side of that change over date was probably just the engine serial numbers.
Hap l9l5 cut off
wow!!! i'am getting a really bad headache i think i will go to bed!!!!!!!!! lol charley
That's why I like the 1919 cars. The fiscal year and the model year are the same.
I can't respond to what you posted. It has so many statements about so many diverse and unrelated subjects that it defies any attempt to make a response. I think what I posted is clear, understandable, and correct. With regard to the MTFCI judging guidelines, anything can be improved upon.
From what I have observed the three rivet front fenders began to be used around May / June of 1915. Two rivet fenders came a few months later, perhaps the fall of 1915.
The March '15 Touring Car (725,xxx) which I had for 10 years had 3-rivet fenders which appeared to be the original ones. The 3-rivet ones probably appeared earlier or later depending upon what assembly plant they came from.
Research by Trent Boggess shows that '15 model year Sedans and Coupelets (production cars) were made during Dec. '14 through Feb. '15 only. As Hap said, Bruce related that they were made earlier. I assume he was basing that on PR pics now in the Benson Research Center, some of which are dated Oct. and Sept. '14, showing the soon-to-be produced new '15 cars. One might logically assume that a dated photograph tells no lies, but those pics were of prototypes, not production cars. He later added Trent's data to the Encyclopedia, long after the hardcover book was out of print.
Trent Boggess wrote an article concerning Accession 125 Finance — Model T Cost Books 1913-1927. In an attempt to keep the discussion on topic I will only post the following quote from Trent:
"One last note of interest: there were very few open cars built in January 1915, only 110 torpedos (roadsters) and a mere 36 touring cars. Apparently the body manufacturers had difficulty forming the curved cowl that was characteristic of 1915 and later open cars. Touring production recovered in February with 5674 touring cars produced." - end quote from Trent Boggess.
The February production of 5674 touring cars cited by Trent was way off from typical monthly touring production. Ford listed 1915 model year / fiscal year, August 1, 1914 to July 31, 1915 touring production at 244,181 units.
If we subtract the known totals of 36 (January) and 5674 (February) we know that there were (244,181 - 5710) = 238,471 additional tourings produced during all of the other ten months of FY 1915 production. That is an average of 23,847 tourings per month.
If only tourings and runabouts were produced in April through July 1915 then perhaps it is understandable that the reason was to catch up from the disastrous months of January and February, and to allow dealers to sell off the vast quantity of sedans and couplets produced in January, February, and March 1915.
From my post above: "Research by Trent Boggess shows that '15 model year Sedans and Coupelets (production cars) were made during Dec. '14 through Feb. '15 only." Not March.
Correct you are!
I should have said "to allow dealers to sell off the vast quantity of sedans and couplets produced in January and February 1915."
Here are a few pictures of my 1913 Runabout. The wind shield folds forward, the engine number is #304554 with a Beaudette body, B128134 . I did find a date on the top rear spring leaf of JAN 1913 . You always wonder how many parts are original. The fenders splash aprons and radiator have been changed. The frame is the late 13 style, beadless trunk. ..........