By definition what is a 1923 Model T Ford in Pennsylvania?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: By definition what is a 1923 Model T Ford in Pennsylvania?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 01:03 pm:

By definition what is a 1923 Model T Ford in Pennsylvania? Below is how the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation views a 1923 Model T Ford and a 1923 Model T Ford Street Rod.

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/fs-strv.pdf

Street Rod - A motor vehicle, or a reproduction thereof, with a model year of 1948 or older, which has been materially altered or modified by the removal, addition or substitution of essential parts and with a gross weight or registered gross weight of not more than 9,000 pounds. NOTE: “Dune buggy” type vehicles do not qualify as a street rod.


http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/fs-ant.pdf

Antique Motor Vehicle - A motor vehicle, but not a reproduction thereof, manufactured more than 25 years prior to the current year which has been maintained in or restored to a condition which is substantially in conformance with manufacturer specifications.

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/reconstructed_vehicles.pdf

Reconstructed Vehicle - A vehicle, other than an antique or classic vehicle, for which a certificate of salvage was issued and is thereafter restored to operating condition to meet the vehicle equipment and inspection standards.

Reconstructed Vehicles must be restored to their original operating condition as designed by the vehicle manufacturer and must conform to the original manufacturer's specifications and appearance. This includes (but is not limited to) air bags, seat belt/restraint systems, emissions components, etc. All reconstructed vehicles must undergo an enhanced vehicle safety inspection to ensure the vehicle is in
compliance with all equipment and inspection requirements. This inspection must be performed at an enhanced vehicle safety inspection station.


To the uninitiated it couldn't be clearer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 01:47 pm:

You're right George, it is as clear as mud. I can tell you though that if you have an completely original antique car with no title or you are building a completely original car from parts with no title (ex. - Model T) most notaries will send you through the process of a reconstructed vehicle. Others will simply take your V.I.N. or engine number, and simply apply for a lost title so it really depends on who is doing the work.

The street rod category is relatively new to the state. It really is for T buckets, fiberglass kit car replicas, high boys, etc. It was created because titling those cars was very difficult under the old system. They do go through a similar process as a reconstructed vehicle but with the knowledge that they are not regular use vehicles and they lack original features such as fenders, for example.

Antique vehicles are a one time registration just as stated above with no annual inspection requirements. They literally are original cars to be used in parades and shows and only driven during daylight hours.

Classic vehicles are also a one time registration but must be inspected annually. They can be driven at night but are expected to have "modern" lighting, etc.

Here is the new twist. It used to be that whatever you registered your car (street rod, classic, or antique) you had to send four pictures, one of each side, in with your application for license. If you were applying for a classic plate, for example, non-original mag wheels would disqualify it. Now, pictures are not required for antique and classic plates. So, to answer your question about what PA considers to be a 1923 Ford, it is what the title says. If you walk in to a notary to register your T bucket that has a valid 1923 title, you can get antique plates and the car is considered a 1923 Ford. If that same car did not have an original title and was a kit car or built from parts, it would be considered the year that the vehicle was built and received its "enhanced inspection". A T bucket built today would get a title year of 2015.

There are a lot of loop holes in the registration of collector cars in the state. Some take advantage of these loop holes to save on the hassle of registrations and inspections. As you can imagine, there are people who would love to register their 1990 beater as an antique and take the chance that they won't get pulled over by the police.

I don't know the particulars in the case of the recent crash but I have seen may kit cars registered as antiques or classics when they really don't have any old parts on them. Because there are so few of these vehicles compared to modern cars, there isn't a huge focus on them by the state. What bugs me in this whole thing is exactly what is being talked about in this crash incident; a 1923 Model T Ford. I saw that story pop up on Fox News with no clear facts of what the car really was. Those kinds of things are not good for the hobby.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 03:58 pm:

Wish it was simple:

Call it what it is a HOT ROD.
Not a Model T anything.......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 05:23 pm:

i can read that perfectly fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Hoffman - Mokelumne Hill, Calif. on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 06:49 pm:

Seems perfectly clear to me. On another note, I don't quite understand the indignation of calling a modified Model T a Model T. If I put a Model A engine in my T, it may be considered a hot rod, but it is still a Model T hot rod. Back in the day I had an Olds engine in my '40 Ford but it was still a '40 Ford. Of course a fiberglass replica of anything is just that, a replica.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 08:39 pm:

Chuck,

I think the problem is that the only thing that is a Model T is the title. That way, they can get around the new / made vehicle requirements.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 08:44 pm:

Why is that a "problem"?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 08:49 pm:

Because the bean counters in the Insurance Companies look at the Make & Model of cars involved in accidents and set their premiums accordingly.

If an erroneously named vehicle winds up in an accident, the claims paid wind up in that vehicles "pool". More claims paid, the higher the premiums for that pool.

Affects all "regular - real Model T" owners.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Hoffman - Mokelumne Hill, Calif. on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 08:58 pm:

So, how do these "pools" work? Is there a different pool for a Model T than for a Model A? How about a '46 Ford or a '51 Ford?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 09:06 pm:

That is a question best answered by your Insurance Agent/Carrier.

(Message edited by adave on April 14, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 09:11 pm:

Let's assume that someone has a true T bucket with a 350/350, disc brakes, etc. If it was in fact titled as a 1923 Ford (Model T is never on the title in PA) and licensed with an Antique tag, it was being used outside of its legal limits in PA. There is no stock Model T within the state of PA that can possibly be registered as anything other than antique. All other registration types (street rod, classic, regular license) require an annual inspection which the Model T will not pass. This is where people bend the rules because the oversight by the DMV is not very good. I see so called "rat rods" with antique or year of manufacture plates which don't require inspections and believe me, most of them have no business even being on the road. The owners know that but choose to drive their junk on the road putting others in danger.

This is the whole reason for Antique plates. They are for cars that no longer meet the safety standards to be used regularly or even at night. This has nothing to do with the driver or their capabilities. You cannot use a stock Model T for daily or regular transportation in PA. As much as that will burn the hides of some people on here it is just how it is. Those that knowingly license their cars outside of what its true designation should be are breaking the rules (laws) hoping that they never get nailed by the cops.

Again, I don't know the circumstances of the accident. For all we know, this was a legitimately titled 1923 Ford that was hot rodded and had the proper street rod registration and passed the state inspection with flying colors. Accidents happen and they are unfortunate. It just makes good news to report a vehicle crash involving a car that is over 90 years old. As with any partial story, wild speculation often comes into play. I would like to give the benefit of the doubt to the people involved that they were responsible and simply lost traction on a curve that was still covered with anti-skid from the past winter or something like that. It is just too bad that they passed away. Most people won't give a thought to the story as soon as they are done reading it but it will most definitely strike a chord with the Model T enthusiasts, as it should. We take these things seriously and bristle at vague reporting of such as story.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 09:27 pm:

On the insurance note, if you are using a classic insurance company you better believe they want to know what they are insuring and if they don't you may just find yourself in a bind when the time comes to file a claim. The example of the 1940 Ford with the Olds engine is now a modified vehicle. Yes it is a 1940 Ford but it is no longer stock which affects insurance. If that isn't disclosed to the company and you get into a wreck, the pickier than usual adjustor may just peek under the hood and see the shaky motor mounts with bird crap welds that little Jimmy cobbled in long ago and deny the claim if something wasn't properly disclosed. Again, you may get lucky and not get caught but why chance it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Thursday, April 16, 2015 - 10:38 am:

It should be ILLEGAL in ANY state to walk in to a DMV with a title to a Model T Ford that possesses a motor from any year other than 1909-1927 and call that car a Model T. I don't care who the hell you are.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Thursday, April 16, 2015 - 10:43 am:

It should be ILLEGAL in ANY state to walk in to a DMV with a title to a Model T Ford that possesses a motor from any year other than 1909-1927 and call that car a Model T. I don't care who the hell you are.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Thursday, April 16, 2015 - 10:56 am:

Stay clear of any DMV. If you want to do it with no complications, go to an independent registration service, and they can get around all the issues. It worked for me, and California is probably the worst.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Thursday, April 16, 2015 - 11:11 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Thursday, April 16, 2015 - 11:23 am:

I think a big part of the problem is that often folks who have a vintage car to register simply don't do their homework in advance of initiating the process. To compound the problem often they will volunteer more information than is needed or asked for.

Many of the horror stories could have been avoided if registration applicants would first have researched the process for their state, got all their pertinent data together, decided specifically what they wanted the results to be, then with all that initiated paperwork appropriate to the targeted result. Furthermore, they would benefit significantly by following the best legal advice ever tendered: Answer the question asked then shut up.

Just my $0.02 worth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John C Codman on Monday, May 25, 2015 - 11:55 am:

Hi Justin. I realize that this is an old thread, but I just now found it. I am curious as to why a T will not pass a Pennsylvania inspection? Here in Massachusetts, the inspection is based on the year of the car. What it left the factory with is what it's supposed to have. The only exception is that all cars must have an operating brake light. I know of one T with a normal registration that was regularly driven to work by it's owner. Emissions testing is required only on OBD2 (1996 and up) cars.


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