More diagnosis help appreciated dragging transmission and engine

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: More diagnosis help appreciated dragging transmission and engine
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Kriegel Mishawaka Indiana on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 07:04 pm:

A little confused need more sound advice as rear wheels turn and engine drags when starter is engaged bogging down the starter


Both rear wheels are jacked up

Rear wheels turn when starter (chugs and engages slowly)

Transmission band access cover opened

Kerosene lightly poured over transmission drums (they look very clean thank goodness)

Kerosene 1 quart mixed with old oil in the engine

Spark plugs removed

12 volt battery hooked directly to the starter for about 6 seconds at a time the jumper cables get hot

What I observe is that the rearmost of the three transmission drums where the high speed clutch finger are rotates when the engine starter is engaged. It appears all three transmission drums are turning . I believe this should not be happening


I need to look I guess on how the power from the engine is being transmitted to the rear wheels to at least reduce that high drag to get the starter to turn sufficiently fast to start the engine

My other observation is I do not know what I should be observing when the clutch (left pedal is depressed to the neutral position. It appears a cam on the left of the spring rotates about 30 degrees When the clutch pedal is in the proper neutral position, what should I observe on the transmission bands and transmission drums for proper operation ?

Any more advice on what is happening and how to correct it tomorrow is appreciated

I know I need to replace all the 12 volt wiring from the battery to the starter etc. This is now where I have a 12 volt battery directly to the starter motor to diagnosis the engine transmission drag before I start on the starter cables


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 07:23 pm:

David - this may be repetitive, but I don't remember you reporting back on the "jack up the rear wheels and use the crank to turn the engine over". Was the engine comparitivly easy to turn over with the crank ??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Plank - Three Way, TN on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 08:35 pm:

Yes, all three drums will rotate when the engine turns over.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 08:38 pm:

David
That handle on the front can be very useful


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 08:39 pm:

To further what Dennis said " in high gear it all rotates as a unit


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Kriegel Mishawaka Indiana on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 08:40 pm:

BUD no, as when I rotate the engine with the hand crank I am also turning the rear wheels Also another problem down the road, the crankshaft pulley fan drive is a V Belt recessed so the hand crank has a longer distance to push in towards the engine to engage This results in the hand crank hitting the radiator !

Dennis, so when I am in neutral, trying to start the car, all three drums should turn ? Will this not cause the car to roll toward me when I turn the had crank or engage the starter ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 08:42 pm:

When you jack up the rear wheels and the parking lever is all the way forward you are in high gear. The three drums and wheels would turn. If you set it in neutral, they still might turn due to the drag of the clutch disks and the bands. However you can adjust for free neutral. This is about all you can do without pulling down the transmission.

A true test would be to place the rear wheels on a level surface and turn the hand crank. The car should not roll in neutral and if you push the car the engine should not turn. There is always some drag in the transmission.


Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark critchlow on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 09:04 pm:

Dave

If you are going to be working on your car tomorrow after I am done with work around 4:00pm and want some help let me know, I will stop by.

I would like to see what the final issues are. Although not well versed in Model t's I can be good moral support.

Let me know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 10:33 pm:

The brake drum, nearest the rear of the car rotates with the rear wheels.
It is driven by the motor thru the 25 clutch disks. When the clutch is adjusted correctly, they are disconnected when the low speed pedal is depressed or the handbrake pulled back.
Now if you pull the handbrake back, the clutch is disconnected and the back wheels should not rotate. If anything is broken (broken clutch disks, etc) or incorrectly adjusted, then the rear wheels may well want to rotate.
Finally the clutch disks are not the know for offering a drag free clutch, but the parking brake should hold the car stationary when you start the engine.
It sounds like the car is quite modified, V belts, 12 volt starter etc and it is my experience that such Model Ts have been modified to fix problems rather than fixing the problem, so beware.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 - 01:24 pm:

David,

If you have all 4 wheels on the ground, and the stick in the neutral position, are you able to push the car forward or backward relatively easy, or does doing so cause the engine to want to turn?

First, jacking up the rear of almost any Model T, while trying to start it, will cause the rear wheels to turn, when the stick is in neutral. However, you seem to be saying that you have drag even with the rear end jacked up? If that's true, you've essentially eliminated the transmission from the equation. Whether it's dragging, or in high, or in neutral, should not matter much. If that's the case, your trouble is most likely;

1. Bad starter
2. drag in engine
3. drag in driveline/rear end


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