Old Warfords and what to expect?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Old Warfords and what to expect?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bartol on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 - 02:03 pm:

I'm planning to add an old cast iron Warford to my TT truck, which has a Ruckstell rear already. How "bad" are these things to use? I know everyone says you need aux brakes, but how bad is it without one if you use the handbrake?

Now, since it is a TT, it's slow right now. How much shifting is really needed for a general drive-around vehicle? Can I just leave the rear in high, leave the Warford in high and just drive without shifting all the time?

I'm new to the aux transmission debate. How often do the old ones get stuck in neutral? I took mine apart, even removing the two ball bearings, springs and caps for the shifter rods. There's one gear that's been chewed a bit (probably low), but the bearings are all good as are the other teeth, etc.

Advice (not criticism) welcome!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 - 02:16 pm:

1. IMHO aux. brakes are a necessity with an aux. transmission. It might work for you, but I just don't believe I'm fast enough to grab and use the emergency brake lever in a crisis situation.

2. My aux. transmission is a Muncie, but the idea should be the same. Once everything is warmed up I usually shift from a stop Muncie 2 (direct)/Ford low, then Muncie 2/Ford high, then Muncie 3/ Ford high. This would be unloaded on flat ground. When you are hauling a load and/or on a grade you have plenty to choose from. Experiment and see what works best for you. I don't have a Ruckstell, but in a TT I think you can assume you'll keep it in direct and only use low when you really need it.

My $0.02 worth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 - 03:41 pm:

Chris, You don't say where you are... I'm not familiar with tt or the CI ones but you'll get the hang of shifting after a bit. I bet you could leave in in OD and use your low and high pedal. We only worry about the neutral issue when down shifting coming up to a stop light. I've never had mine jump out of gear. With the slow speed of the tt your gears I bet will not be a problem. Of course we haven't seen them. They're pretty much indestructable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 - 04:52 pm:

Chris, I'm also a serious believer in aux brakes when there is an aux transmission in the driveline. That said, my aux trans has never slipped out of gear on me. The problem time is when you are shifting the aux while on the road. If the revs aren't close, it won't go into gear. I've managed to screw up the shift on occasion and had to come to a complete stop to get it back in gear. This is pretty rare lately but no uncommon early on. No big deal if there is no traffic and you are on the flat. Bummer on a hill or in traffic. Can you really reach for the handbrake and steer in an "exciting" situation?

If you decide to just count on the hand brake, you might consider the extension accessory to at least bring the handle close to you so you don't need to lean forward as far. Lang's has them at https://www.modeltford.com/item/A-HBEX.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Davis Houston TX. on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 - 06:08 pm:

I use a cast iron Warford underdrive with 3/1 differental gears. Works like a dream. Quite, easy to shift if you match engine rpm to that expected when the shift is complete relative to mph driven.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 - 06:40 pm:

I have a '26 Roadster PU and a '25 TT C-Cab and they both have a Ruckstell and a cast iron, 6-speed Warford. There are no auxiliary brakes. I never have had any problem with being in neutral, missing a shift or otherwise losing brakes. The objective is to plan your driving...leave lots of space, don't attempt a shift when in traffic or when there is not a lot of space ahead. In my cars, the parking/emergency brakes are plenty adequate. Just pay attention to how you drive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 - 07:13 pm:

Chris, the reason most owners recommend auxiliary brakes with an auxiliary transmission, is just as a precaution should either your auxiliary transmission or the Ruxtell axle become shifted into a neutral position. This is easily possible with an auxiliary transmission but shouldn't happen with a Ruxtell that is in good condition. It can happen in a Ruxtell that has wear on internal parts, even though it may appear to operate normally most of the time. If either the transmission or axle get stuck in neutral, you effectively have a break in the driveline which prevents the engine compression or transmission brake of being any help to slow you down. The factory emergency brakes may help if you have adequate stopping distance; your speed isn't too high; and you're not in mountains or hills with a steep decline, but auxiliary brakes offer better peace of mind in those situations. You said your TT is pretty slow, now. That doesn't tell us whether you have the standard low speed gearing, or the optional high speed gearing. Either way, if either the auxiliary trans or rear axle fail, in an emergency situation, it is going to be up to your rear axle brakes to stop you. Your T transmission brake is going to be useless. P.S., not all TT's are slower than T's. At least one turbocharged TT and one modified but naturally aspirated TT are known by members of this Forum to be able to keep up with all but T speedsters.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 - 07:31 pm:

If you have an auxiliary Transmission strongly recommend you install auxiliary brakes.

The MTFCA first President was killed in Model T due to getting into an unintended neutral.

The Speedster Run regulation require aux brakes if aux trans is used.
I think the National Tour Inspection form recommends the same.
Need I say more


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 - 09:39 pm:

The iron Warford is a great addition to a TT. I have one with a Ruckstell in mine. It gives your 12 forward gears, out of which I regularly use 7. You will find there is a gear perfect for every situation. It takes a good deal of practice shifting the Warford at speed, particularly when split shifting both it and the Ruckstell at the same time. This may not be necessary for some or even recommended, but I do it all the time as I usually have a load in the dump bed and live in hill country. The trick is matching your engine RPM to road speed for any given gear choice. It's tricky. I will guarantee you this: you will blow a few shifts and get the Warford in neutral while underway and play hell trying to get it back into gear. (That is what happened to the damaged gear you mentioned.) At this time you have no brakes. This is why I will join the others is asking that you please consider getting some kind of brakes for your rear wheels for your own safety and that of others. Depending on what gears you have in your rear end, the truck is capable of up to 35-50 MPH in overdrive. Even at lower speeds, brake loss is terrifying. I've been there.
Speaking of Warfords, if you have the iron three speed unit, make sure you have the front casting with the u-joint between the Warford and the T trans. Many are missing that part, and also the support crossmember on the rear of the Warford that is needed because of the front joint.
Use the Warford, by all means, but get brakes too.
Fordially, Erik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Thursday, April 16, 2015 - 12:15 am:

Im thinking the sameauxs trans ( muncie) in mine simular 3 speed unit to the warfordno syncros shifting is tough more so on a down shift had a model A trany in my speedster
I didnt have auxs brakes only thing the buyer added but i say in modern traffic got few pukker moments in a missed gear
Reaction time is keyfor everyone s safety
But think how and were your going to drive it i agree either raise the hand brake at the very least
Im currently on the same fencejust wish there was another option beside rockies


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bartol on Saturday, April 18, 2015 - 09:34 pm:

I'm in the process of rebuilding the transmission and I have a question about gaskets. What thickness of gasket material is needed for the two end caps that hold the lower gear set in place? I tried bolting them in place with just RTV gasket maker, but when I tighten the bolts up, the bearings are too tight and the shaft won't spin. Also, what type gear oil should I use?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Saturday, April 18, 2015 - 10:29 pm:

I believe there were originally steel shims of various thickness' to set the preload - mine does.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bartol on Sunday, April 19, 2015 - 12:07 am:

This one was taken apart before me, so there are no shims in place. Any photos of what they (the shims) look like? Did they only go at the base of the cover? From what I saw in a cut-away, it only pointed to the base of the plate.

Any good photos and diagrams appreciated


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Sunday, April 19, 2015 - 01:57 am:

Here is a photo of the gears showing the shims.gears


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Sunday, April 19, 2015 - 04:12 am:

Chris you need to have a specifications for end play in these two shafts. This will be controlled by the gaskets and shims at the end of the shafts. If someone has these numbers it would make it much easier. If it were me, I would find a similar Trans that we had known end play numbers and use those. I'm guessing that end play would be determined by the size and type (Tapered Roller Bearing here) and how many are on each shaft. If you can't find anything for similar specifications let me know I might have some around.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Sunday, April 19, 2015 - 05:21 am:

I don't think there are any specifications for end play....it is all preload and rotational effort. Just like front wheel bearings (tapered rollers). Don't agonize over this. Apply shims as required to get a good *feel*. I don't recall any gaskets....they are unreliable for establishing preload. Perhaps paper would be OK. Don't use gasket seal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bartol on Sunday, April 19, 2015 - 10:22 am:

Where can I get shims? Does Layne's sell a set for the KC that will fit?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Sunday, April 19, 2015 - 01:44 pm:

Chris, You don't say where you are located but you can make some from bulk shim stock. I would not hesitate to apply a light coat of Ultra Black to make sure no oil leaks out. It will not change the preload enough to matter.

Add shims or gasket until you feel just a slight drag or a bit more with the bolts tightened up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Sunday, April 19, 2015 - 01:58 pm:

It seems like it would be a monumental task to make shims in the shape required. There would be nothing left after you finished cutting that shape. Need some kind of punch or nibbler. I realize I am not much help here. What happened to the originals...when you took it apart? How did the preload get so tight? It must have been set up correctly when you took it apart. There must be something else going on. Did you get a new cluster?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Sunday, April 19, 2015 - 02:02 pm:

Chris,
OOps... I reread your message...*someone had taken it apart before you*....sounds like you got a bunch of loose parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Sunday, April 19, 2015 - 04:08 pm:

Here are some Specs from Eaton for a newer Trans that is a similar roller bearing type as the Warford.

eaton
eaton2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul griesse--Granville,Ohio on Sunday, April 19, 2015 - 05:11 pm:

Speaking of Warfords---Had my TT out yesterday and couldn`t remember the shift pattern on the Warford which was installed many years ago--seems like it goes forward and backward on the stick--like high and low. Do I have that right? Thanks, Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Sunday, April 19, 2015 - 06:30 pm:

I respect those data for end play that Fred provides...specifically for the countershaft.
I don't know how *preload* relates to *end play*. I sense that there is a temperature sensitivity in that the case and innerds expand when heated under load and clearances vary. Somehow I feel that tapered rollers should have full contact and clearance should be minimum. Perhaps .002 endplay is the best answer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bartol on Sunday, April 19, 2015 - 08:27 pm:

I took apart the other Warford that I got (bought two at the same time) and it had five shims on one side and a paper gasket on the other side. I think I'll clean this one up and prep it for installation and set the other one aside until I find shims (I'll call Layne Monday to see if they sell shims).

I noticed a couple differences between the two (size of side panel and the second one has a removable cover on top behind the shifting lever). The first one is solid behind the shift lever. What did they change design-wise and why?


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