Curious

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Curious
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Friday, April 24, 2015 - 11:51 pm:

One of the Stations in Longmont sell what is supposed to be straight ETHANOL for way less than regular mixed gas and ethanol. Yet a service station I pass on the highway way to Berthoud every morning is now selling what they post as gas with no ethanol. What I don't understand is the gas with out ethanol is $3.00 a gallon and the mixed gas sells for $2.20 at the same station. Any way I have been stopping at the station and filling my Ts up with the non ethanol. 'What Going on???

5 Ts


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 04:16 am:

good question. I thought with the effort (extra step in processing) AND addition of ethanol I thought the price would go up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 04:54 am:

It takes almost twice the ethanol, to produce the power of gasoline.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 06:30 am:

Using ethanol gas in my T's doesn't bother me a bit. There's nothing in their fuel system that it will hurt (No cork floats or rubber fuel line). I've not tried letting one sit up for a year with ethanol gas in it, but as mine get driven regularly, I don't think twice about putting it in them. As a matter of fact, I used E-85 exclusively for one year in my TT, just to dispel the myth about it sucking up tons of water and rusting out the tank and all that BS.

What I'm worried about is my wife's '67 Mustang. It needs 93 octane to not knock and the only non-ethanol gas in my area is 87 octane. I fully expect to have a fuel pump diaphragm fail one day due to rubber deterioration from the ethanol.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 08:51 am:

Hal, the fuel pump diaphragm on my 1971 Plymouth GTX has split about every 5 years since they started mixing ethanol with gasoline. Luckily, my pump is rebuildable, so I'm able to buy and replace just the diaphragm. I always carry a spare fuel pump in the trunk in case it happens far from home.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 09:04 am:

From what I understand though, as time goes on, virtually everything inside the fuel system will be coated with a yellow-ish varnish type substance from the corn, and that's when things will start acting wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 09:27 am:

What if they used white corn?:-)

I'm not going to get into the political aspects of ethanol, mainly because I don't even understand them. However, I do believe there is an effort to make ethanol gas out to be worse than it really is. It has never been a good idea to leave even non-ethanol gasoline sitting up in a vehicle for prolong periods of time. I really get a kick out of the people who say ethanol attracts moisture and then it somehow separates and sinks to the bottom and rusts out the tank. Moisture from the air gets into the tank as fuel is used up. If it cools below dew point the moisture condenses. If there is no alcohol in the fuel, THEN the water separates from the gas and sinks to the bottom. If there IS alcohol, the moisture simply mixes with it and it goes right on through the engine. Any of you who live in cold climates and use HEET to add to the fuel system to "Dry" it and "Keep fuel lines from freezing", well that's all HEET is, alcohol. You pour it in. It absorbs the moisture and it all just goes through the engine. I won't swear ethanol blended fuels will not go bad quicker than non ethanol fuels, but any fuel will leave a residue inside the system if left to evaporate. Best thing to do is use everything regularly. In stuff like my lawn mower that sits unused over the winter, I do buy non-ethanol gas and use Stabil in them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 10:00 am:

Dave, as for the price difference, it is because he can charge more for the non ethanol and people will pay it. Also the ethanol is produced with a subsidy, making it artificially cheaper than it should be.

As for the impact of ethanol, I'm with Hal. Shouldn't impact a T engine at all. Since I'm a transplant from the north, know all to well how dry gas works. A tank with non ethanol is more likely to have water separate that a tank with ethanol fuel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 10:01 am:

You don't fill up as much with pure gas so they charge more to make up the difference and to discourage it's use.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 10:09 am:

Most of the ethanol mixed gas here is E10 or 90% gas and 10% ethanol. The interesting thing is when you mix gas and 10 % ethanol you get almost exactly 10% worse gas mileage.

So the ethanol is essentially a "filler" and preforms no real function. I have heard that mixing with ethanol does reduce exhaust pollution significantly, so maybe that's why its pushed so hard.

If you can get pure gasoline (0% ethanol) at less than 10% above the price of E10, its more economical. Hard to do that though ;o)

Like Hal said, I have also used the E10 (gasohol) in my T for 3 years now with no ill effects that I can tell. I have no idea what E85 would do in a T.

Has anyone tried it ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 10:14 am:

My worry is the effect using corn to produce ethanol will have on the price of polenta.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 10:15 am:

BTW Back when I was still flying I filled the tank on my Luscombe with gasohol. It flew fine and the engine ran well but on returning to the airport I lifted the cowl to check the oil and found the rubber gas line from the tank to the carb had swelled to almost twice its size and was leaking like a sieve. Almost had another bean field landing.

There no doubt in my mind that gasohol will destroy rubber fittings if they're not designed for it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 09:12 pm:

E85 here in IL is about .30 cheaper than E10. In Indiana, #85 is at least $1.00 cheaper than E10. Sometimes you just go hmmm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John E Cox on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 09:24 pm:

Dave, If they sell straight ETHANOL you can bottle it and sell it as sipping whiskey.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 10:06 pm:

John, I bet they denature the ethanol just to stop your get rich scheme!

Hal, why not pour avgas into your Stang? That stuff is 100LL. In English 100 octane Low Lead (tetra-ethyl lead). Take a bucket up to the airport and don't let folks see what you are using it for!

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 10:40 pm:

This thread sound a bit corny to me! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black SC/FL on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 11:16 pm:

The govt is messing with the diesel too. They offer a benefit to the oil companies for adding 20% biodiesel. I noticed it when my fuel mileage went down 25%. Price still the same and I consume more regular diesel than I did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, April 26, 2015 - 08:08 am:

Terry,

I suppose 100LL would work. It's been years since I flew. I'd hate to know what that stuff goes for now. Kinda hard to get, though, especially when you're on the road.

Bud,

Yes, I ran my TT on E-85 for a year. I had to richen the mixture by maybe 1/2 turn and it was a real B!*&# to start in the Winter. Other than that, I didn't notice a difference in performance. However, some informal testing showed a decrease in performance, but I hadn't noticed it during operation. That's probably because it is geared so low. If it had been a car, the difference might have been more noticeable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, April 26, 2015 - 10:17 am:


I had to replace a leaking rubber fuel line in my tow vehicle. I can't fill the tank all the way to the top because the hose in the filler neck leaks. I'll have to drop the tank to install a new hose. I assumed the leaks were due to normal deterioration during the last forty years, but it occurs to me that in recent years those 1973 hoses may have been eaten by modern fuels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Sunday, April 26, 2015 - 10:34 am:

Informative info I'd saved in an old email... Hopefully, you'll be able to open the PDF attachment as well.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
FYI- E15 Gasoline??? Just a 'heads up"

Watch this video from Fox Business...if your CAR IS OLDER THAN 2012 you need to AVOID THE NEW E15 GAS that is just starting to show up at gas stations.

Most car companies will not honor the warranty on your car if you use this new gas.

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
********************

Personally, I buy gasoline with no ethonol in it! I know that 10% mixture has ruined many small engines. i.e mowers, leaf blowers, chain saws.... Be aware that 'ethanol energy' actually takes 10% more energy to produce, and is only '90% as efficient'... You can find stations in your area that pump ethanol free gas- your mileage will probably improve immediately by as much as 10%! (Locally, Fleet Farm has no-ethanol 89 Octane @ 10-30 cents/gallon more. 10 cents/gal. X 20 gal. = $2.00.... If average mileage of 25 MPG, X @+10% = $2.75, plus saving future fuel line & engine damages!)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

'A Special Alert' if you have a 'Collector' or 'Performance' Vehicle... (See PDF attachment) One of my friends sent me an article in his December Marlin club's newsletter. Very nice, rare car. Included in the newsletter is an article about 'ethanol gasoline', which I suspect you will also find interesting.......


FishTales-v13-4_Dec12
.pdf Download


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Sunday, April 26, 2015 - 10:41 am:

(This is the PDF article about ethanol which was in the Marlin Club's newsletter.)

From HMN, 14 Nov 2012 Photo by FLariviere, courtesy Shutterstock.
[Editor's Note: Jim O'Clair's recent post on zinc levels in modern oils led to a discussion in the office about the other fluids we put in our collector cars - particularly how those fluids have changed since the cars were new. In that spirit, we asked him to take a look at the technical aspects of ethanol in modern gasoline and how ethanol qffects older cars. This story is not meant to discuss the political implications of ethanol in gasoline, and we ask that anybody who comments on the story refrain from discussing politics. Thank you.] Like it or not, ethanol in gas is here to stay. Although it does reduce pollution in our atmosphere, it can cause problems for many collector cars, boats, and older outdoor power equipment because of some of the side effects related to its use. When people talk about ethanol in todays pump gas, theyre referring to E10, which is a formulation that contains 90 percent gasoline and 10 percent ethanol. Car manufacturers are now building engines that can run on 51 to 83 percent ethanol, which is often called E85 or flex fuel. Ethanol is refined from grain alcohol; most specifically, corn, here in the United States; but it can also be made from switch grass, manure, willow trees, and even sugar cane in some countries. The use of ethanol will only increase. Federal law mandates that the U.S. use 36 billion gallons of alternative fuel per year by 2022. By comparison, the United States used only 11 billion gallons in 2010, and the requirement in the law is that we ramp up to 15 billion gallons per year in 2015. The only way we would get there is to buy more gas V which is unlikely to happen, given the cost of a gallon these days V or increase the ethanol content in each gallon. Unless your cars owners manual states specifically that it is an E85 or Flex Fuel vehicle (if you dont know for sure, check the eighth digit of your VIN), you cannot use E85 fuels. Pros of ethanol-supplemented fuel: h Ethanol is clean-burning and is a higher-octane fuel than conventional gas. h Ethanol is produced from renewable sources. h Ethanol-powered vehicles produce lower carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide emissions, and lower levels of hydrocarbon and nitrogen oxide emissions. h Ethanol production keeps American farmers in business and creates new farming and ethanol-processing jobs. h Because ethanol is produced domestically, it reduces U.S. dependence on foreign oil and increases the nations energy independence. h Ethanol needs fewer fossil (coal) and petroleum (gas) fuels to produce more BTU of energy than gasoline (although it does require much more water).
Fish Tales Vol 13, Issue 4 Page 9
Cons of ethanol-supplemented fuel: h Ethanol creates 34 percent less energy than unadulterated gasoline per gallon. This equals a loss in fuel economy of up to 3 miles per gallon for E10 fuels. In terms of heat, ethanol produces 76,330 BTU per gallon, whereas diesel fuel produces 128,450 BTU per gallon, gasoline 116,090 BTU per gallon and LP gas 84,950 BTU per gallon. The fuel economy gets even worse with E85, a loss of 7 to 8 miles per gallon with its higher ethanol content. Consumer Reports, testing in 2006, verified a loss in fuel economy of up to 30 percent in a Chevy Tahoe designed to run on flex fuel when it was tested with both unleaded gas and E85. Poor fuel economy can also be attributed to improper fuel system calibration based on computer feedback from oxygen sensors because of the temperatures needed to burn ethanol. h Virtually any grain considered feedstock can be used to make ethanol, but some grains are better for producing ethanol than others. Corn happens to be one of the worst grains for making ethanol but we produce so much more of it than any other grain that it was the ingredient of choice for U.S. ethanol producers. In South America, ethanol is produced from sugar cane, which is easier to refine and gives a higher yield per acre than corn (1,200 gallons per acre vs. 300 gallons per acre of corn). The U.S. government did impose a 55 cents per gallon tariff to prevent the import of sugar cane-based ethanol into the United States, though that tariff has recently expired). h Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water more easily than gasoline. That leads to water condensation inside fuel tanks, carburetor fuel bowls and fuel lines where air spaces are present. Water content in fuel will also swell up the paper filter media inside fuel filters not specifically designed for flex fuels and can thus restrict fuel flow at the filter. h Ethanol also erodes fiberglass tanks, rubber hoses and plastic fuel lines. It contributes to rust in fuel systems by creating condensation in the unfilled portion of gas tanks. It will also dissolve varnish and rust in steel fuel components. These dissolved ingredients sit in the bottom of gas tanks until they are removed or they will enter the fuel system if the fuel level in the tank gets too low. So what is a classic car owner to do? Especially when their car is sitting unused in the garage more than it is on the road? It has been stated that you can counteract the poor fuel mileage by driving at a consistent speed of between 40 and 60 MPH but that doesnt really apply to boats or classic cars that are parked or do not have cruise control in most cases. Several recommendations of things you can do that should help come from OE marine manufacturers who have been battling these ethanol-related fuel problems: h Replace any plastic or rubber fuel lines with ethanol-resistant hose or nylon tubing. h Install a water separator filter in the fuel line leading to the carburetor. Water collects in the filter and can be removed periodically. h Replace any fiberglass tanks with steel or aluminum. h Ensure that any O-rings in the fuel system are also ethanol-compatible. h Keep your tank as full as possible to prevent air space where condensation can form. h Use specific ethanol-compatible fuel storage additives. These are normally blue in color. Regular fuel stabilizers will not work unless they are labeled ethanol fuel-compatible. h Shop around for a marina or service station that does not pump E10 or E85. None of these stations will be affiliated with a major gasoline producer, but there are still some out there, especially in areas around lakes and rivers where boating is popular. You can find a pure gas map of many of these stations online at the Historic Vehicle Association website h Vent your fuel system during storage for extended periods; the moisture your fuel system might absorb from the outside will be less than the moisture created in the air space inside. h Use a fogging solution in your carburetor during storage to prevent condensation from collecting in fuel bowls. h Use of isopropyl alcohol-based dry gas will help to absorb system moisture. Regular dry gas is ethanol-based and will only make the problem worse. Isopropyl-based additives actually combine with the water molecules and removing moisture through the combustion chamber. h Use of a flex fuel-compatible fuel filter where possible will prevent degradation of the paper media in your filter by water in the fuel system. SEMA has also made ethanol in gasoline one of its legislative priorities, opposing the pending rollout of E15 fuel. For more information on that effort, visit SEMASAN.com.


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