ALARM BELLS! Found this article on Yahoo.... Do we need to 'expand' our 2nd Amendment rights??
It won't be a problem for me as long as it doesn't apply to old vehicles. I have only one computer-era car at a time. When the last one reached age twenty and the fancy electronic crap started going south very expensively, I got rid of it and bought one only six years old. I'll do the same with it. If I get 100,000 miles out of it that will be fine. I have more than enough to do without getting into the modern high tech stuff.
They are talking about the computers in cars. With your home computer, you sign or check a box that you agree to their license that allowed you to use their software/programs as long as you do not change or copy it for resale. My 91 Dodge Dakota, you can't even find a diagram of the computer anyway. All the wires in any diagram I have found end at a big hole.
How would this affect gas and diesel truck owners who have plug in engine tuners?
You can thank Micro$oft and Apple for coming up with this idea 30 years ago. Just took the auto industry a while to figure out how to implement it.
Being as 'Independent' as I am, the very idea gets me P.O.'d.... What can be done?? Legislate against legislation?
The public has been brainwashed since birth that one absolutely MUST keep
up with technology or:
a. the earth will cease its axial rotation
b. one will be out of fashion
c. you'll be the fool on the hill
d. one's teeth will fall out, or
e. all of the above
All this modern electronics stuff might be nice for doing this or that. I love
my nail guns, but if things really went to hell, a hammer (and the skills to use
it) will always get the job done.
I do not own a computer car. I refuse. There is nothing that exciting about
cupholders, movie players, and backup cameras to pique my interest in paying
full retail for a POS that is designed to go TU on me. If anyone could understand
this viewpoint, I'd think it would be T owners, yet I read on these threads all the
time about guys wanting to keep up with "the latest". But it's all part of the brain-
As Steve says, I have better things to do with my time and money than go down
This discussion appears to be an indication of the 21-century rise of Association of Licensed Automobile Manufacturers and resurgence of the Selden patent dispute.
The dispute arises from a section of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act that no one thought could apply to vehicles when it was signed into law in 1998. But now, in an era where cars are rolling computing platforms, the U.S. Copyright Office is examining whether provisions of the law that protect intellectual property should prohibit people from modifying and tuning their cars.
One of the association's goals was to protect the automotive market from fly-by-night operators, but it excluded some promising manufacturers. Its members tended to be Eastern manufacturers who aimed at the luxury market, while the unlicensed manufacturers were Midwestern producers of moderately priced vehicles.
"No man has a right to profit by a patent only," said Henry Ford, reflecting on the case in 1925. "That produces parasites, men who are willing to lay back on their oars and do nothing. If any reward is due the man whose brain has produced something new and good, he should get enough profits from the manufacture and sale of that thing."
There is a very simple solution, don't buy the cars from companies that support this!
Make your voice heard!
There was a time when the people would rise up and resist, now we follow like sheep ready for the slaughter.
If we had the same mentality 240 years ago that we have today we would be singing God save the Queen.
Do threads like this have anything to do with the phase of the moon?? Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
Pretty soon people won't be able to phase their own moon !
of course they dont want us working on our own cars. They loose millions in parts and service sales.
And next thing you know they will unionize all the mechanics causing labor rates to sky rocket. And then folks with below 1 million a year income will be back to riding bicycles. All part of the liberal agenda. Make you walk for cleaner air.
Sounds like you need to beat some people up.
In NZ people have taken to building their own ECU.
I don't know about you guys, but I tried to mess around with my new car- and I am lost. This is a new-car issue, I'm happy to have my union-mechanic working on my car, at least I know it'll be done correctly.
That's OK, James. But what about "Next week; Next month; Next Year; or in 5-10 years or more???" We seem to never know what we have until it is taken away!
Marvin...the constitution is becoming an endangered species. Lot of people at the top making sure of this, often times without any of us knowing it. The power of the pen. I'm sure you know what I mean.
You can still maintain and do most repairs yourself. The whole article is to not allow changes in the vehicle managememt system. Most of these changes are done to make cars and diesel trucks go faster, and blow black smoke all over. Believe me people do not need to go faster. And what about these companies? Well I guess they could focus on making model t parts for us!
Who do we contact to protest this? these laws get passed because we let them.
This has also been initiated in the tractor world with John Deere being the first to push for legislation. Now if I could only understand the 36 pages of fault codes that came with my recently purchased New Holland tractor everything would be peachy!
I've never had a computer, power steering, fuel injection or automatic transmission in any car I've owned. In fact I've never even bought a car new.
That won't be changing anytime soon.
The thought of owning a car that has to be taken somewhere outside of my garage to be repaired by someone else is repugnant.
Most people can modify the engine without pouring smoke everywhere. Dumb law is dumb.
I've already decided I will never buy another GM car due to their creepy On Star system. Hopefully this new idea will drive away even more of their customers and let's not bail them out next time.
(Message edited by 404 not found on April 27, 2015)
John you must be still driving an awfully old "modern" car!! Virtually every car built from the early 1980's on had some sort of a computer chip in them. Only thing is, as each year passed, more and more of the cars became "computerized". Early 80's cars actually had many of them equipped with some form of a fuel injected carburator also. My '83 pickup had one as well as my '86 Cougar.
I like my old cars real and old.I like modern because i don't have to work on them and i bought what i thought was the best old because i would rather drive than work on them!! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
I would imagine a lot of this is simply to prevent litigation against them by people who do stupid things to their own vehicles. This is the legal way of doing it. We have become a society where taking responsibility for ones actions is a thing of the past. Take the great GM recall due to faulty ignition switches. Cost them millions because they could never have forseen people dangling a pound of weight off the ignition key. Not saying I agree with it, but its hard to legislate against stupidity. Far easier to protect themselves with existing laws according to their interpretation of it.
Last Sunday I went out to our 2001 PT Cruiser. I started it up, turned it around and shut off the engine. I went back in the house and enjoyed a cup of coffee. My wife and I went out got in the car and I started the Cruiser There wss a real loud bang and I knew the muffler went I immediately shut off the engine, went in the house, called Triple A and had the Cruiser taken to the local garage for repair. We bought the car used for $1,000.00 and drove it for five years.
It had 185,000 miles when bought and went to the
big car graveyard with 198,000 miles. The reason for sending it on its way is because the repair bill was going to exceed $25000 and the better half has been wanting a newer vehicle and now she is going to get one. ( Used )
John - did you really mean "$25,000 (twenty five thousand)?
They want how much to repair a muffler? Those are like $400 new including labor. 2001 PT cruiser is a new car. Really new.
Probably also needed a new catalyitic--and if the shop buys factory, the stuff is expensive. I hear the PTs aren't that durable though. Shame, 'cause I sorta like their looks (for a modern car).
if your going to tell me that I can't work on my car.
OK it is two words - but you get the point!
I am in the "live free or die " state on purpose.
If I wanted someone to tell me what I could or could not do I would move to Massachusetts.
If I wanted to pay for the "privilege" of supporting the unwilling to work I would live in New York
If I was smart I would move to the number 9 out of 10 happy places. - New Zealand but they would probably deport me!
Oh, please do not get me started. The issues you folks have brought forward are sensitive issues. "Dumb law" "any law that is repugnant to the Constitution is null and void".
And no I will not have a computer auto either.
IV, B. God our Creator gives to each unalienable Rights
1. Life, Liberty, the pursuit of Happiness, property, safety, respect, privacy, etc.
If we have a political forum I can continue.
My apology for getting off track.
Now for the matter at hand is restoring my 1927 Touring body. 95% rust free. But replacing the wood is more like a jigsaw puzzle.
Would any one care to point me in the correct direction for a solution?
I am taking photos of each step of the process so that I can share this resto with others.
Junking a car because it needs a muffler? Sheesh. . Mufflers and catalytic convertors can be had off ebay at sense able prices.
And yes I have put both on a dodge truck. Aint easy,but cheaper than paying title fee's and higher property taxes on a newer car.
That is 1 of the things that would keep me away from a new or newer car is property tax. My older vehicles are low value. For example my 66 f100, is valued at 1200 dollars after I objected to their value of 7500. I had to drive it to the court house and let them look thru the floor board and inside the bed and see that it was a inline 6 with 3 on the tree instead of a big honking v8. My 6000 pound tag with property tax is around 60 dollars a year. While I was in the office to get it I watched a man write a check for well over 650 dollars for tag renewal and tax on a 2015 Explorer. Which you can not even check the transmission fluid in yourself! IF it leaks you are supposed to go get it fixed right then because it is the "green" thing to do.
My daily driver is a '51 Ford F1.
Some days I have to haul cars on a trailer behind it.
I feel very relaxed driving it every day.
I put a 3.5:1 positraction rear end in it some years ago.
It will not suddenly puke its automatic transmission, it will not ever need a new in-tank fuel pump, it will not ever need a new ignition control module or a headlight relay.
If it dies I can fix it with simple hand tools.
It only cruises along at 55MPH with the higher speed rear end I have in it, but that is the speed limit while pulling a trailer anyway, and I can push it up to 70 if I really need to.
It would be nice if it had synchro first or a 5 speed transmission and power disc brakes though, but I can get along nicely the way it is, 3 on the tree and lotsa leg power to stop it.
Oh, and it NEVER leaks a drop of oil on the customers' drive ways. Nice not to have power steering, don't miss it at all.
Aaron, Wouldn't it be nice if you could find a 2 speed rear end for that truck, that would be my dream. Besides it is not 10 miles long like all of the modern trucks with a 6 passenger cab that no one but state road crews need or want with an 8 foot bed to boot. I like a single cab with a short bed especially when backing a trailer into a driveway off a 2 lane road. Keep it going as long as you can.
I remember when we bought our new red 1951 F-1 pickup!We had the 87 hp 6 and 3 on the tree and i started driving it farm to farm at 11! It was a very tight fit to get 3 men in the cab and short rides helped!I remember the starter would lock and we would rock it in high to free it.If a truck like that makes anyone happy,i'm glad for them but a two passenger 1/2 ton with 87 hp in my mind is useless as a one truck do everything!! Been there did that!!! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
Hi Burger, My 2005 Dodge Magnum RT is a computer car. It will cruise at three times the maximum speed of my T and will get better gas mileage then the T while doing it. It will haul a 4,000 lb trailer, Start instantaneously at 15 below zero, and make SW Florida in two days while it's occupants are driving in air-conditioned comfort. A 50 mph crash in it is survivable, and it's exhaust emissions are minimal. At 120,000 miles it has had routine maintenance only. The T is fun, but I'll take a modern computer car for daily transportation any day.
Yes modern cars are wonderful. If only the modern driver was just as predictable and dependable. Stopping at stop signs, alert to small children, and motorcyclist. And understood the mechanics of an automobile.
We have a 2006 Buick La Crosse. It is 6 cylinder but I have only seen 3 of the spark plugs. The other three are somewhere in the back between the engine and firewall! I have no desire to even try to work on it myself. It is sufficient for me to check fluid levels and drive it. It runs wonderfully and actually has 6 ignition coils. It seems that what comes around goes around. I don't even know where the coils are, but it was misfiring and I took it into the shop and they told me #5 coil was bad.
The problem with newer cars and home repairs is that you could get the car running seemingly just fine, but it would not pass smog check. Without passing smog check the car cannot be registered, at least not in California, so I just take it in for servicing.
When initially posting the thread, it was obviously alarming to me. And meanwhile, many have agreed. It makes sense to have an 'expert' take over when we lack a specific knowledge ourselves. However, it still galls me that our 'American Independence' can & has been forfeited in so many ways. This too sounds like its headed down the same kind of path, and we need to speak up before it is too late! Congressman?? TV stations?? Newspapers?? Just sharing my thoughts....(Quoting Charles Osgood): "The only problem with common sense is that it is not all that common."
I think the issue is the fact they basically want to sell us a cracker box and tell us we cant open the hood on what we just spent 40,000 dollars on. Once you pay for something,and have proof of purchase, it should be YOURS to do as you dang well please.
IF this is the mindset of manufactures perhaps they need to stop selling vehicles and computers and force people to lease them. Then they can be more in control of them.
Trust me, If i could go into this computer or a cars computer,and punch out some crap in it I don't like, I would ,legal or not. Wouldn't do it for others,but would do it on my own in a flash.
To be honest, I don't see why folks with the education don't just build their own computers for their cars. Just unhook the stock stuff and tell the manufacturers to stuff it, and design and build the control systems themselves.
From what my cousin tells me that works for GM the 2014 Gm vehicles have up to 8 computers in them. And you cant just replace 1 with another from the salvage yard or it will blow the other 7. You have to get the computers programed to connect to each other. He said sadly it would be common to see 3 year old cars crushed because computers cost more than the car is worth. Job security for GM workers.
Good luck if you think writing or calling your congressman will do any good. Only money will fix anything with congress. If you think you can send him more money than the Auto mechanics all over the country can send, good luck.
I'm not going to lose any sleep over this. The article mentions "renting the technology". The lessor would be responsible for all repairs just as is a landlord. A free lifetime guarantee actually seems pretty good to me.
Problem is, one can buy a vehicle and reprogram the computer for their desires including getting more power out the engine. After said engine self-destructs due to the owners "tuning", the programming is returned to the factory default and the car is brought in under warranty for repair.
The date and time of the "tuning" is normally registered in the car's electronic control module. The Technician may not be able to see it on the car maker's diagnostic equipment, but the factory can if they desire to do so before paying for a new engine.