Aluminum rods for putting a A crank in a T block

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Aluminum rods for putting a A crank in a T block
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, April 27, 2015 - 08:20 pm:

Some number of years ago aluminum rod castings were offered for this type of installation. They allowed the use of ordinary T pistons. I picked up a set from a estate sale. New never machined or installed.
Someone out there must have some experience with these. My guess is that you end up running aluminum right on the crank, which should be OK in a full pressure engine. I don't believe that babbitt will stick to aluminum but what do I know. Of course I think there are now shells available for this size so that might make this work out well that way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Monday, April 27, 2015 - 09:58 pm:

Aluminum can be babbited, but it takes a special process. There was a thread a while back where this was discussed. Guys who know Franklins would have the info.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome Hoffman, Hays Kansas on Monday, April 27, 2015 - 10:03 pm:

Les, you need to talk with Gary Lafever in Wichita KS. He's won numerous times at the Tulsa Hill Climb running AL rods.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, April 27, 2015 - 10:08 pm:

Hasn't Briggs&Straton been using alum alloy rods for many years with no babbit?? Bud in Wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, April 27, 2015 - 10:21 pm:

Guys
Thx for the response
Yes many small engines as well as AC compressors run aluminum rods on the steel crank
I wonder how the Franklins did it?
Jerome
Do you have contact info for Gary
I have this 2up 2 down crank and I have finally found a camshaft to take advantage of it. The rods could figure in to it


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Monday, April 27, 2015 - 10:34 pm:

Franklin rods are babbited after some kind of special preparation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Monday, April 27, 2015 - 11:08 pm:

AC compressor rods are tinned so that they don't seize on startup.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, April 27, 2015 - 11:23 pm:

Rick, what does that mean?

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, April 27, 2015 - 11:35 pm:

Herm
I'm curious too


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 - 12:11 am:

Erik, I have rebuilt many sets of Aluminum rods, none that I have taken the babbitt out of, have showed any sign of being tinned, and that includes many sets of Franklin rods.

Aluminite rods, are the ones that will run directly on a steel shaft, like a lawn mower.

This type of Aluminum can not be tinned, no matter what.

Lynite alloy can supposedly can be tinned, because it has copper in it, that will tin. That type of rod should be poured in a centrifugal casting machine. I have called all the companies that make the tinning compounds, for everything you can think of, but all say you can't tin Aluminum.

If there is suck a thing, I would like to try it.

As to date, I have not found an Aluminum rod that will take tinning, but I have not had a chance to pour a set of Aluminum Model T rods that were poured to begin with.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 - 12:11 am:

Erik, I have rebuilt many sets of Aluminum rods, none that I have taken the babbitt out of, have showed any sign of being tinned, and that includes many sets of Franklin rods.

Aluminite rods, are the ones that will run directly on a steel shaft, like a lawn mower.

This type of Aluminum can not be tinned, no matter what.

Lynite alloy can supposedly can be tinned, because it has copper in it, that will tin. That type of rod should be poured in a centrifugal casting machine. I have called all the companies that make the tinning compounds, for everything you can think of, but all say you can't tin Aluminum.

If there is suck a thing, I would like to try it.

As to date, I have not found an Aluminum rod that will take tinning, but I have not had a chance to pour a set of Aluminum Model T rods that were poured to begin with.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 - 12:23 am:

Herm
How is the Babbit retained/ attached to the aluminum rods you have rebuilt?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 - 12:26 am:

Herm,
I agree about tinning aluminum. That's why I use it for molds and mandrels. Babbit won't stick to it. What do you do to rebuild a Franklin rod? Not interested in doing any, just wonder how it was and is done. Somehow the bearing must be anchored in the rod and heat transfer possible, right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 - 03:05 am:

Is the tin applied electrically?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Greenlees on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 - 09:51 am:

Aluminum rods without an extra bearing should not be used in an automobile engine w/out a full-flow oil filter and pressure oiling.

You may get away with it for a while but the oil in a Model T engine is full of 'dirt' even if it is carefully cleaned while rebuilding. It enters thru the breather, from worn particles of bronze bushings, casting sand that looses it bond from the casting, pieces of rivets that on occasion fall out of the bands, carbon, steel particles from the timing gears, cam and lifters and from other sources.

Babbitt has the ability to embed the particles where they will do minimal harm. An aluminum rod cannot do this and the dirt wears and scores both crank and the rod.

I have worked on a number of early engines where the babbitt in aluminum is held in place with anchor holes as are the T main bearings.

You can also machine your own bronze or steel shells and babbitt them.

Some modern car engines use aluminum main and rod bearings but is made from a special alloy that is soft enough to allow dirt to embed itself and modern filters and seals keep out as much dirt as possible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 - 10:17 am:

Interesting posts guys
I had hoped to here from someone who has run these rods successfully as I know there are more "out there "


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 - 10:22 am:

I don't know what was used ,they just said the rods were "tinned" to protect them when going from 0 to 3450 rpm in an instant until the oil and refrigerant could get there which was almost instantly, they said the metal had a flow capability ?

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 - 10:36 am:

OT, but the air conditioning compressor on my 1971 Plymouth Barracuda threw an aluminum rod once, here is a picture of the carnage:

pic1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Richardson on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 - 11:00 am:

I believe Series 10 and 11 Franklins used Lynite rods, which can be tinned and cast with babbit as was mentioned above. It requires special techniques.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 - 03:10 pm:

Yes they are Chuck, the Lynite is embossed right on them.

The first set of pictures are Franklin mains. they were not tinned at the factory either, as they were replaceable inserts. These are made just the way they were, and maybe better as some of the originals had blow holes, and other defects.



These are the Aluminum rod bearings. They are not tinned, but they do have anchor holes that I put in.

You can NOT depend on the anchor holes to hold the babbitt in, however. When you pour, you have to suck the babbitt to the wall tight, by cooling some.To much won't work, to little won't work, that is where experience comes in, and even I couldn't do it with out regulated pot temperatures.

You will notice that there are not any seams showing between the babbitt, and the Aluminum of the rod, as the babbitt is tight to the Aluminum, as if they were one metal.

This should also be the way babbitt is in a steel rod, NO SEAMS, but many are not.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 - 05:44 pm:

Well I suspect the rods I have are 356 alloy. Certainly not Lynite.
So shells may be the answer. Sure wish someone who has run a set would join in


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 - 07:43 pm:

Les, I think the rods you are talking about, I had a set of.

Been along time ago, I know I called Dan McEachern, about them, and I think he said he thought they were a casting, rather then a forging. So I didn't use them.

I think they had red primer on them.

They may have been made by Townsen Auto, in IL.???

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 - 08:20 pm:

Herm
Yes I am quite sure they were "Townsend". I know I bought some of their main bearing cap castings. They were nice ductile iron castings and worked great.
The cast aluminum concept doesn't bother me as they appear to be a TOP quality casting. By now they are well "aged" so any internal casting stresses are thoroughly relaxed. And yes this is a real concept.
Mine are bare aluminum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Greenlees on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 10:04 am:

"You can NOT depend on the anchor holes to hold the babbitt in."

With all due respect Herm I have to disagree with you and have found a way to do it. I should have added the following:

1. When I pour them in my bearing fixture after adding anchor holes I add a .003 shim were the babbitt meets the cap or rod and extend it out along the rest of the parting faces. After cooling and shrinkage it leaves right around .001 "bearing crush" and it can be measured w/a depth mic and adjusted if needed.

Readers can learn more about bearing crush here: https://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/3309/a-bit-of-a-crush



2. I carefully peen the babbitt to seat it and expand it in the bore as one would do with a Ford bearing before boring.

3. I used a set of these aluminum rods in one my hopped-up T engines that was run quite hard. Even after 15,000 miles the bearings were checked and were still tight in the bores and working fine. This engine is now in another car and it has had another 5,000 miles put on it and the bearings as still snug in the bores.

4. In other engines (Thomas Flyer main bearings) using the same procedure and using a carefully fitted spacers between the two halves as seen in your photo (below) to prevent them from ever rotating, I have had the same good results. Some of these engines have been run hard on very long tours and after pulling the pan after 5000-10,000 miles and checking them the bearing were still tight in their bores.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 11:31 am:

David
Can I send you these rods to babbitt?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Penserini on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 11:33 am:

I also bought a set of those rod castings from Townsend. The Townsend catalog stated you ran the rods directly on the crank, the aluminum was the bearing. Here's a copy of the "instructions" that came with the castings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 01:20 pm:

Well, Mr. David, in 48 years, we have never lost a bearing, and that includes Aluminum Rods.

1. When I pour them in my bearing fixture after adding anchor holes I add a .003 shim were the babbitt meets the cap or rod and extend it out along the rest of the parting faces. After cooling and shrinkage it leaves right around .001 "bearing crush" and it can be measured w/a depth mic and adjusted if needed."END QUOTE"

David, the diagram the you are showing is of a inserted rod, you do NOT have crush on a poured rod bearing of any kind, as they are different!

We normally use .006 thousandths, or what ever the rod had originally.

Both rod surface, an cap surface should be machined flat. Then add shims to the rod with them extending to the inside of the babbitt, and all is then machined together, so if there is oil pressure, it will not have a space to push out.

So with a flat surface on the rod, and cap, with the flat shim, both sides of the babbitt is held tight.

Peening a Aluminum, or cast steel rod will work being you don't know how to pull babbitt tight to a bearing shell, but for me it is a waste of time, out of the two ways.

4. In other engines (Thomas Flyer main bearings) using the same procedure and using a carefully fitted spacers between the two halves"END QUOTE"

Yes, David, mains inserts do have to have crush, because they have to be tight in there shell, but all still have to have anchors.

Crush holds them in tight "ONLY", and screws, pins, rivets, shims keep them from turning.

So what you have done is mistakenly took an inserted rod diagram, and tried to work it in a poured rod situation. In all the thousands of bearings we have done here, never would you see such a thing.

If you put shims in between inserts, they will in most cases cut them off, like a shear, between the insert, and the block, if not making a weak point.

I know this in your own idea, but you better do some more study on bearing building material.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Greenlees on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 01:23 pm:

"Can I send you these rods to babbitt?"

Les, Thanks for asking, but sorry I can't help you out. The shop is full of projects and between those and keeping the wheels on TheOldMotor.com turning I don't have any time.

But, any competent re-babbitter who is willing to take the time should be able to do it after after the machine work Mike shows above is done. You can use the aluminum for the thrust surfaces and just babbitt the center.

Here is another great source that explains how good aluminum engine bearing are made: http://kingbearings.com/files/Engine_Bearing_Materials.pdf

If you need to contact me for more info do it thru The Old Motor website so I don't miss it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 02:06 pm:

Mike
Thanks very much for the instructions. That is the sort of information I was hoping for


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Greenlees on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 03:17 pm:

Herm,

Same here, no problems w/any of my bearings in 35 years.


"David, the diagram the you are showing is of a inserted rod, you do NOT have crush on a poured rod bearing of any kind, as they are different"!



This I know Herm, but I use this same type of crush to keep the poured non-insert bearing with ANCHOR HOLES from ever loosening up in the rod or the crankcase and in odd ball applications like this it always works out just fine for me.

An yes anchor holes AND THE CRUSH I add keeps it in place. Anchor holes really are the only thing that keeps Model T main bearing babbitt in place.

The crude drawing (above) shows where the shims are placed ONLY DURING POURING.


"Yes, David, mains inserts do have to have crush, because they have to be tight in there shell, but all still have to have anchors.

Crush holds them in tight "ONLY", and screws, pins, rivets, shims keep them from turning.

"So what you have done is mistakenly took an inserted rod diagram, and tried to work it in a poured rod situation. In all the thousands of bearings we have done here, never would you see such a thing".

"If you put shims in between inserts, they will in most cases cut them off, like a shear, between the insert, and the block, if not making a weak point".

Yes, David, mains inserts do have to have crush, because they have to be tight in there shell, but all still have to have anchors.

Crush holds them in tight "ONLY", and screws, pins, rivets, shims keep them from turning.

So what you have done is mistakenly took an inserted rod diagram, and tried to work it in a poured rod situation. In all the thousands of bearings we have done here, never would you see such a thing.

If you put shims in between inserts, they will in most cases cut them off, like a shear, between the insert, and the block, if not making a weak poi These Thomas main bearings also only originally anchor holes and no spacer. I never use shims in an application like this.


Herm, I have not done anything "mistakenly" and just because "you never would you see such a thing" Does not mean it will not work. I know as much as you do about the subject and have studied all of the principles behind all types of engine bearing for over 40-years.

In addition to pouring bearings in place I have also machined many (200-300), new main, rod and cam bearings from scratch with both steel and bronze backings w/poured babbitt for early cars.


I add a .003 shim were the babbitt meets the cap or rod (see drawing above so it is clear to you) and extend it out along the rest of the parting faces. After cooling and shrinkage it leaves right around .001 "bearing crush" and it can be measured w/a depth mic and ADJUSTED if needed.

You just have to "think outside the box" a little at times to come out with something that will work when nothing else does.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 03:43 pm:

Well guys all around a informative "thread"
Thank you for your time and input


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 04:29 pm:

The way your diagram is, is a waste of time to do.

The only reason to think out side the box, is if you don't know how to do, the time proven way.

The whole idea of the way you are doing it, is to keep the babbitt tight, and to keep it from turning.

All you have really done is create stress from what sticks up at the part line, to the first set of anchor holes on each end.

You don't have inserts, and that is the only thing that design is good for.

With knowing how to suck babbitt to a shell, the babbitt is tight, and don't have to be peened, and it will never need crush.







This will never come loose, David.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Greenlees on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 05:49 pm:

Les, Thanks, always happy to help.

Herb,

Qoute": "The only reason to think outside the box, is if you don't know how to do, the time proven way."

I do know how to use preheat to my advantage when pouring babbitt in all materials. And I do know how to do it things in "time proven ways" for all babbitting operations.

I fully anticipated that you would shoot down anything that I posted here trying to help others, as you usually do with me or anything posted by others that is not approved by you or done by you. I have seen you do this over and over to other posters on this forum and have witnessed other's frustrated responses to the condescending way that you choose to try to rule.

With no disrespect aimed at you, normally you don't take the time to fully read or grasp what another person tries to convey on this forum and your responses are usually from the "It's Herm's Way And No Other Way File." I have seen it happen time after time.

On that note, I have better and more productive things to do than continue this ping pong game with you and I will just keep keep on doing things "the mistaken way" that has held up and worked well without failure in 100s of thousand of miles of touring by friends and clients, and has won and competed at many vintage racing meets here and in the UK and Europe. I wish you well and have a good day Mr. Kohnke.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 06:10 pm:

Oh, Cool, try to pull the sympathy card!

I guess you ran out of any argument for it, or defence of it.

Herm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Greenlees on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 - 06:45 pm:

No Herm, That's not the case. I told the truth as I see it and as others have stated on this forum before. And I really do have better and more productive things to do with my time, like helping people with information about old cars and helping them with their old car problems.

I have no insults for you or your work or knowledge. The show is all yours Herm..... And again I wish you well once more as I am done here with this discussion. Have a good evening.


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