It was all for nothing.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: It was all for nothing.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 12:52 pm:

After taking three weeks to dismantle half the car to get at the starter and have the thing rebuilt and then put everything back together, the car still won't start. _I'm getting the exact symptom I had before: _I step on the (brand new) starter button and absolutely nothing happens—unless I switch the headlights on, in which case, when I hit the starter button, the headlights dim down to nothing and the battery seems to go dead for a few minutes—and then recovers.

Obviously, the problem is not the starter or the starter switch, and I have a freshly charged battery, so if I were to go into the garage now and switch on the lights, turn-signals, etc., those things would work just fine. _The car has electricity, but the starter won't make a peep. _I'm at a loss as to my next move.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 01:02 pm:

Turn the key on and use the manual starter in front!
Did you bench test the starter before you installed?
Will it spin if you jump it right from the battery?
Have you cleaned all connections?
What is your battery voltage?
Sounds like a bad battery or ground issue.
There should be no connection that you would need the lights on to have the starter turn, unless, do you have a starter solenoid installed?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 01:04 pm:

I would use my volt meter to locate the place where I had a "low grade" connection. After each of these tests hit the starter button and WRITE down what you get for a reading of the voltage
1. First I would connect the voltmeter across the battery
2. Now move the negative to the starter body.
3. Now move the positive to the "hot" side of the starter switch.
4. Now move the positive to the output of the starter switch.
5. Now move the positive to the connection on the starter.

Now please report back to us what you get for a voltage reading for each of these tests and we may be able to give you some good direction


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul iverson on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 01:17 pm:

it sounds like a bad batt to me take it to autozone for a free load test or try a diff. batt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lloyde Eckley on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 02:16 pm:

Bob, I hate to say I told you so, but---Your battery is dead or no good, no matter what your charger says. Do like Les says and you will find way less than battery voltage 6 or 12, whichever it is. The lights going dim tells me that is the problem, a volt meter will verify. Good news is you now know you have a good starter, and you now know how to remove it if needed !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 02:19 pm:

It happened to me after a fresh restoration. I added a ground strap to the engine, and spent some time reading voltage drops, then put the new battery on a tester. :-) Then I took the 12 year old Napa battery out of the other T, and off we went.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Killecut on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 02:48 pm:

Years ago I chased a similar problem, it turned out be a junk repro ground cable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 03:02 pm:

The chap who sold me my touring said it needed a new starter. When I installed a new battery the starter cured itself. Six years later it's still fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 03:22 pm:

I'm sorry that you have spent so much on your car without solving the problem. Hopefully the fix will prove to be less of an expense.

The starter takes the biggest load on the battery of anything in the car. A bad battery cable might be able to supply enough juice to the lights, horn turn signals or coils, but when the starter button is pressed, will not turn the starter. Start at the battery and be sure the connections at the poles are clean. The wire should be crimped and or soldered to the connection. Sometimes corrosion gets between the wire and the connector and makes for a bad electrical connection. So if it is not in perfect condition either repair or replace the cable. Be sure the cables are correct for 6 volt. They will be heavier gauge wire than for 12 volts. You might need to visit tractor supply or someone who deals in 6 volt equipment to get the correct cables. The next thing is the cable between the battery and the starter. should also be in good condition as the ones at the battery. A ground strap between one of the bolts holding the starter and the frame will help in some cases.

After you have tried to start the car, check out the cables for heat. If they are getting hot near the connectors, you might have a bad connection either in the crimp or soldered connection.

Last, would be to test the battery under load as pointed out above as Les or Paul have suggested. It is true that sometimes a "new" battery is defective. It is even possible to break the connection inside the battery if one pounds the cable on to the post. So be careful how you install or remove your cables from the battery.
Good luck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 03:33 pm:

I once had a brand new battery short out while driving the car. Didn't know it until I pulled up at a stop sign and let it idle--dead car. (not a T, so wouldn't run on mag!). AAA jump started it, and ran the idle up to charging speed and drove the 36 miles home to get a New new battery. Good thing I was on my way home, and not the other way around! I think the battery was in the car 3 days when this happened.
So, new batteries do fail! I have a battery load tester that would confirm the problem in a minute, maybe someone around you has one?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 03:36 pm:

I once had a brand new battery short out while driving the car. Didn't know it until I pulled up at a stop sign and let it idle--dead car. (not a T, so wouldn't run on mag!). AAA jump started it, and ran the idle up to charging speed and drove the 36 miles home to get a New new battery. Good thing I was on my way home, and not the other way around! I think the battery was in the car 3 days when this happened.
So, new batteries do fail! I have a battery load tester that would confirm the problem in a minute, maybe someone around you has one?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 03:41 pm:

I would agree it's a battery problem. However, let's just go through the other things it could be.

There are a few places that have often provided electrical problems, mainly when the tremendous load of the starter is applied:

One: The clamps on the battery posts, both where they clamp onto the battery and where they connect to the cable. The two worst offenders here are dirty connections to the posts, and those #%&^)#*$ clamps with two bolts and a strap that clamp on to the cable I've never seen one of those that didn't give trouble.

Two: The internal wires in the cables. they're hidden from sight by the insulation, but corrosion can eat them away.

Three: The starter switch. You've taken care of that.

Four: The post on the starter, both where it connects to the cable and internally in the starter. You've taken care of that.

Five: the "ground path" to the starter, which includes the ground strap - to - frame connection, and then is typically through the engine mounts. You've taken care of the second part of that with your engine ground.

Six: the ground connection between the starter and the engine block. Typically gives trouble because of paint on a newly restored engine, which doesn't seem to be your problem.

Try this: Using ordinary jumper cables, jump from your new car directly onto the clamps on the battery posts. If the starter spins, you know your whole electrical path is good, and the only thing left is the clamp - to - post connection. This pretty much proves the battery is bad. Applying 12 volts to the starter for a short time won't hurt it, and 12 volts won't hurt the coils, but don't turn on the lights lest you burn out bulbs.

As an aside, I remember hearing about someone who took off a battery post clamp, wrapped the post with Scotch tape, and put the clamp back on. It sounded like a funny trick at the time, but it points up the fact that those connections need to be clean, bright, and tight.

CAUTION: If there is a loose connection internally in the battery, every time you put a load on it, it heats up. Eventually, it will spark. BOOM!! You and your car will get sprayed with sulfuric acid. Be prepared! Don't let this happen! And keep a hose handy in case it does.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 04:23 pm:

Bad battery or a poor battery connection. It opens when a big load is applied.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 04:36 pm:

Bad starter switch, does the switch get hot when you push it down, Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 04:52 pm:

Bob - About everybody on here is more "savvy" in the area of anything electrical, but I can tell you what happened to me with a Mazda:

I'll try to make this short,...not easy for me!

Starter slowly became unreliable. Sometimes had to "play" with the ignition switch, like on & off several times before starter would "kick in". Got worse & worse until I finally replaced the solenoid. (Twice, thinking maybe first one was bad,...it happens).

Won't bore you with all of the checking, double checking connections, ground connections, etc.

Much as I dislike dealer service agencies, I finally went to Mazda and talked to service writer, mechanics and parts dept. They told me it was a "bad" ground cable. Now then, this is the woven strap type cable that we've all seen for many years. Mine looked perfectly fine, and I had removed it, cleaned terminal clamp and made sure good ground to frame. They said,..."no matter, the cable might look good but it's corroded and has to be replaced. Told them I saw no corrosion,.....they said we know it looks good, but replace it. So, I bought a new cable, thoroughly disgusted, thinking I just got a "fast answer" from Mazda.

Installed the new cable, twisted the key, starter snapped that engine over like it was a brand new car, and no trouble ever after that. Would not have believed it if it hadn't happened to me. Mazda did say that some Mazdas had been factory equipped with this troublesome type cable that eventually corroded somehow internally due to the type metal they were made of which I believe included aluminum.

I always have, still do and always will hate electrical stuff,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 05:11 pm:

I use electricity to start fires.
Works good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 06:28 pm:

What Peter C says. ESPECIALLY HIS LAST LINE!
Any electrical connection can fail in an odd way that effectively turns it into a current limiting diode. Lights will work. Horn may work. Ignition will work. As soon as the starter is engaged? The current limiting effect will prevent anything from working because of the starter's high current demand.
Like David D and others have said here, I have also had new batteries go bad while still considered new (more than one).
And I have had a battery fail where the plates and acid all were fine. The battery even passed the auto store's standard load test (too light of a load). Actual starter load dropped the voltage on the battery posts more than five volts (and would not start the truck). The drop was inside the battery. Probably the connections between the plates and the post, or a connection between separate cells. Once I went to the trouble of setting it up and showing them the actual starter load voltage drop, they put a new new battery in my truck and we duplicated the test. With no other changes made, the truck fired right up with a voltage drop of less than two volts (actually not measurable with my cheap voltmeter because the needle swung too fast and the truck started too quickly to get a good look at it). But that was enough to convince the fellow that the battery was at fault, and he warrantied the battery. The first battery was less than a year old, and the replacement worked fine well past expectancy.
Good luck! I wish I was close by to really help. I used to have to find the tough ones as part of my job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Killecut on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 07:51 pm:

Be careful using jumper cables from your modern car(12V) onto the clamps of the battery post of your Model T(6V). You might get lucky, but then again you could blow the 6V battery up


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 10:11 pm:

Replace the cables going to the battery. 1 of them is probably corroded up inside the connector where you cant see it and is causing the failure.happens to any thing with batterys and acid.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 11:03 pm:

RE Battery cables;
You would have one end connected to the battery. The other end, ground to ground and touching the positive to terminal on the starter. You would be doing a test to see if it spins the motor over not really using them to start the car so draw time on battery would be short.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Saturday, May 02, 2015 - 11:27 pm:

No need to name names but was the starter rebuilt by a competent T parts rebuilder?? Was starter tested before installed ?? Sorry about your plight but the crank sure sounds simple!! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 09:35 am:

If you have to remove the starter again secure it in a vise or something similar, get a set of jumper cables and attach them to a 6 volt battery. you will find out pretty quick if the starter is good.
This sounds like a simple fix to me whatever it is.

Another simple test without removing the starter and remove the bendix if you want.
1 remove the cable on the starter post. 2 set your 6volt battery on a bench or something right next to the car. 3 attach jumper cables to the frame and the cable post on the starter. See what happens. You will know if the battery and starer are good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 10:14 am:

Time to get back to basics. Too bad the advice involving jumper cables and a test lamp wasn't followed as suggested in earlier posts on this problem but that's all moot now. you have a bad connection or a bad battery. Remove the battery cable connections at the posts. Using a set of jumper cables connect them to the battery. Connect the + cable to the starter terminal and groung the other one. Does it crank? Bad connection or starter foot switch. Doesn't crank? 2 possibles: the starters ng (hope not) or the batts ng. Direct connection. It's one or the other. Your T's 12 volts. You can use your car battery to jump the T starter also. If it cranks with your modern's batt you T batt is ng. connect the + to the starter's post and use the ground cable to prevent arcing/ruining the starter post. Checks like this should have been done first.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 10:22 am:

Just in case it's not the battery or another electrical problem.

Did you put the transmission in neutral before you stepped on the starter button?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 10:29 am:

I know you said you have a new starter switch, but some of the repro switches are (or were) junk. They may work one time and not again. The reason was the copper contact strips inside were not "tempered" The first time you depressed the starter you bent (straightened) the strips and they never work right again. An easy switch test is to just "jump" across the two studs on the bottom of the switch that the cables hook to. I just use a large screwdriver to make a quick contact across the studs. It will spark as the contact is made, If you make a "quick" and "firm" jump of the studs it will not harm anything. but it will tell you for sure if the switch is good or bad ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 01:35 pm:

GROUNDS GROUNDS GROUNDS Most 6 volt systems starve for volts due to bad grounds.

In a 6 volt system the drop of a volt here and there means 3 or less volts at the starter not enough to get the starter to spin.

So start at the battery ground cable and clean the rust, paint and primer off the frame, then use a new braded ground strap and a new bolt and nut and a washer on the strap side of the bolt.

On all battery cables(I only use 1/0 welding cable with soldered copper terminals) solder all terminals no clamp or crimp type. The shorter the run and less chance of voltage drop.

The reason you have some type of voltage when you turn the headlights on is a feed back thru the wiring due to a bad ground somewhere in the system.

As stated above check the voltage at each connection as you are trying to energize the system. I'm guessing you are loosing voltage at the input side of the switch.

just sayin'

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 04:27 pm:

Bob - Not to belabor the point, but notice that "brass car guy" specified "a new braided ground strap"! (ref my post above)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 05:00 pm:

Bob,

Not to cause "dissension in the ranks", but I firmly believe that no action is "for nothing".

Surely, the result of all your labors is not what you (or we) expected, bit there is something to be learned from your work.

Anxiously awaiting the results of the tests Les recommended - when you have time to post them....in your usual loquacious manner.

Have a good week.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 05:26 pm:

Dave
I suggested the tests as I have always to attempt to identify the problem, and then fix that. The other posters have the ability to "divine " the problems without testing!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 06:17 pm:

As the word, "ground" was mentioned in this thread over twenty times, I took it to heart and installed a short cable between the starter case and the car's frame. _It's a good thing to have, but in this case, made no difference.

Then I tried bypassing the car's circuitry with a set of jumper-cables, going directly from both terminals of the battery to the starter, but that didn't work either (and I didn't really expect it to as I'd tried this a few weeks ago).

This entire episode had started with me putting a fresh charge into the Optima battery with a fancy, computerized Optima charger, and I double-checked the charge indication between steps. _And each time, the gauge showed the battery at 100% capacity—but what the heck—as long as the jumper-cables were in hand, I might as well make the futile gesture of attempting a jump-start from my modern car's battery. _It worked. _The starter turned the engine over and I felt like a complete dunce.

It was a huge mistake to believe the gauge on a fancy, pricey charger and let it dissuade me from performing the most obvious check, back at Square-1. _I'll figure on dropping in a new battery tomorrow and chalking this embarrassing episode up to experience.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 06:38 pm:

Put a regular lead acid battery in it. keep a maintainer on it.

If a battery charger has "automatic" on it, I automatically don't trust a thing it says. They can be easily fooled and cause trouble like this. Manual battery chargers don't lie as often.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 06:41 pm:

Thank you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 06:43 pm:

If possible post a photo of the actual battery cables on the battery. Corrosion can hide inside the lead where the copper is crimped and cause this trouble. The jumper cables are connected and could be getting past the corrosion. If the insulation is swollen around the wire going into the connector it is corroded.
I watched this same situation unfold on a lawn tractor and after they bought switch,solenoid,battery,starter they called me and ask what happened. I walked over to the machine,grabbed the red positive cable and pulled it out of the lead terminal and showed them the green stuff.a new cable fixed it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 06:53 pm:

Glad you got it rectified, Bob !

I'm an Optima battery fan - original Optima purchased near 20 years ago for my '25 Racer - not driven regularly as our other T's - Battery Tender plugged in - still cranks the BB RAJO, A crank over like nothing ! I also have an Optima in my daily driver - '96 F-250 w/460 gas hog and the wife's '65 Fairlane Sport Coupe, it also is on a Tender.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 07:12 pm:

In most cases a connection that has a resistance of 0.01 ohms is darn near perfect. In a starting system that draws 250 amps or so, that's a 2.5 volt drop. If your systems 6 volts it renders even a good battery worthless. If it's 12 volts it renders it almost worthless.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 08:18 pm:

Today's lesson(s):

No start = faulty battery 2 X (Malia's was the other)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 08:36 pm:

Steve Tomaso (and anyone else interested) - In case you didn't see this or know about it, at the last big swap meet at the Puyallup Fairgrounds Showplex, there was a guy there that I thought had something pretty unique.

He has made a "specialty" out of concealing Optima batteries inside a very stock and conventional looking square shaped black rubber battery case marked in Ford script I believe, and it was unbelievable how identical this made an Optima look like an original Ford battery from the Model T era. This set-up also had original looking conventional battery posts on top to attach conventional battery cable lug type terminals. A really great idea I thought!

I picked up this fellow's card, but for some reason, now I can't find it. I believe he was from somewhere just north of Seattle, like Bothell or Redmond of someplace. FWIW,....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, May 03, 2015 - 08:45 pm:

Oops! I should have also said that the Optima batteries concealed inside the original black battery case that really took my eye were the 6 volt Optima batteries with the three cylindrical cells,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, May 04, 2015 - 01:29 pm:

The gauge on your charger was fine. The battery was bad. It's not a "bad battery" gauge.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Monday, May 04, 2015 - 02:49 pm:

Bob
We've all done crazy things, I try to start with the things that require the least amount of time and work as I get older...
Last thing I did was de-mount a tire pull out the tube to check for a leak, as I rolled the tube through the tub of water I couldn't find my leak. So after checking the tube twice I pushed the valve stem under water and guess what?
Yep there was a few tiny little bubbles coming from the valve core, I got my tool for valve cores and a fraction of a turn and it stopped bubbling...!
So now when I have a low tire first thing I check is the valve core.... Live and learn. Glad you found your problem...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, May 04, 2015 - 04:10 pm:

A year or two down the road and this can become your "tale to tell" around antique automobile gatherings!
Drive carefully! And do enjoy. W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Monday, May 04, 2015 - 05:54 pm:

Okay, it was the battery. Many of us thought so, from your symptoms, but I can understand why you thought otherwise with a new-fangled Optima battery.

But, don't blame your charger and its meter!

Back to your original post. You said the lights worked fine until you hit the starter, then they went dim-to-off. Stayed that way for a while, then came back.

That's a classic case of a connection that can carry a modest load, but when hit with the 200 or so amp load of a starter, it goes bad. Then when it cools off, it comes back.

If a new battery proves the fault was inside the battery, then your quest is over.

But, remember, the only time more than about 15 or 20 amps goes into or out of your battery is when you hit the starter. That includes the charger. If a charger would be able to put out more than about 15 amps or so, it would boil the electrolyte in the battery. Other than "Quick-Chargers" used in service shops, which have to be put on a timer or constantly monitored, no charger is built to be able to do that.

So the fact that your charger showed a full charge was not a lie. It just didn't read the battery when the internal connection had gone bad.

Take the Optima back to where you got it, and ask for another. But if they decide to load test it, stand very, very clear. I don't know what chemicals are inside and Optima, but we know it has a faulty connection inside it which could spark, and it might explode, as I mentioned in my prior post. And advise them to drape several rags over it and weigh them down with something heavy before they do. And don't forget the hose!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Monday, May 04, 2015 - 07:33 pm:

Today I bolted in a new battery and the starter spun the engine like crazy.
Though I've had a Model T for five years, I remain the know-nothing newbie.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, May 04, 2015 - 07:51 pm:

It wasn't a waste - you have a newly rebuilt starter, a new battery, freshly cleaned and checked electrical connections, and you learned a lot!

Now take a deep breath and rest, then get out there and drive the wheels off it! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Monday, May 04, 2015 - 08:00 pm:

Bob,

Methinks you are being overly self-critical. As Steve McC. said, we've all done crazy things. (Can't tell you how often I've tried to start one of mine, and after several revolutions, either by electricity or arm power, with no start I then realize that either the switch or the gas is off).

Just don't drive them often enough to remember!

The dreaded "tunnel vision" syndrome exists in areas other than aviation....one must have an open mind to all possibilities.

I know that your experience has helped me, and I suspect it will aid others in the future.

Thanks for taking the time to explain all that was going on, and most importantly, you swallowed your pride and told us the cause of your problem.

May you have a joyous summer - and hope that you don;t run out of the mustaches !!


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