Example of liability waiver

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Example of liability waiver
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 12:01 am:

Our club recently had a discussion as to whether or not we should have a waiver for people to sign if they and/or their children receive a ride in one of our T's during an event.

Would anyone out there be willing to share a copy of the waiver that they use? Was it checked by an attorney before you started using it?

Thank you for all your help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 07:36 am:

Damn, it's a sad world.:-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 07:58 am:

And sorry to say, getting worse. Just look at the recent news....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 08:19 am:

You can have all the waivers you want but they don't apply if YOU are negligent and that negligence causes injury. Be sure your car is in top mechanical and structural condition then review your insurance policy coverage for injury to occupants.

Maintenance and safety is the responsibility of the owner/driver. You can't make a passenger waive YOUR responsibility.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 08:54 am:

Just so you understand where liability will likely be challenged, here's a list to pay particular attention.

Brakes, steering, spokes, tires, missing parts/handles that leave protruding objects, loose bolts, broken springs, etc.

If you've cobbled together a "driver", it's best you leave passengers at the curb. No waiver will protect you if any of these items fail and result in injury. Your waiver will be meaningless.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 09:28 am:

Place a phone call to the Nat'l club your local belongs. If MTFCA, then call the Business office, local club activities should be covered under the national insurance if detail is made of what the local will doing, described in sufficient detail and the event registered with the national.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 09:41 am:

That's what it boils down to--How good is your insurance? :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 09:51 am:

Ken, you are sadly correct! Like that sad face.

But very true. No wavier will work. You must have insurance of a proper amount these days, for any untoward miss-happenings that might take place. Most times nothing happens at T events. But if the one time hits, you are best prepared by having insurance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 09:55 am:

A liability waver is a neat piece of paper, but it only a neat piece of paper.

If something happens and the people are greedy they will go after the person or entity with the deepest pockets.
Unfortunately, lawyers and BIG payouts are teaching people to be greedy, know where the deep pockets are, and don't care if they burry you in debt.

Ken is right in asking "How good is your insurance?"
I have a large liability rider on my insurance policy to protect my family and hope it is enough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 10:58 am:

Yeah, I've considered doing that and my lawyer's attitude is that, in a court of law, that document probably wouldn't be worth the paper upon which its written, but asking parents to sign it might cause them to think twice about putting their kid in the car and thus reduce the chances of a lawsuit.

By the way, he also said that anytime you decide to take somebody else's kid for a ride around the parking lot in your antique car, you absolutely must, MUST, MUST also have at least one of the kid's parents aboard.

Driving strangers around in a century-old car, knowingly devoid of safety equipment, might not be the wisest course of action. _I do it, but very seldom.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 11:19 am:

We run a little behind the times here and i'm glad! If i get sued i get sued and i'm not about to call a lawyer any time soon! I think before i start running scared at having fun it's time to pass the hobby on to others!! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 12:12 pm:

In this fast changing world old antique cars are becoming out of place and outdated. Yes they are nice to drive and own but a Model T is not the safest car in the world and taking kids and the unknowing for a ride is not the safest thing to do for several reasons.

I would feel more comfortable giving rides in a 40's-60's car than a Model T. You have to remember those cars are considered antique nowdays. At least they have good brakes!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 12:59 pm:

This is some thing you should definitely stay away from. Too many single car accidents lately. I don't give rides to children at all especially my family because I'd rather be dead myself than have them killed because an item failed on the car. If someone asks or insists it'll be OK for them to ride just explain the lack of safety devices.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 01:31 pm:

Hmmm.

In other threads we lament about the future of the old car hobby, especially the segment concerning Model Ts and even older vehicles. We propose to involve younger people and introduce them to the family friendly and memory building aspects of this hobby. We speak about getting new club members.

And we won't give any one a ride.

"Oh, yes sir. This is a great hobby! Lots of fun! These cars are a hoot to drive! Restoring one with your child makes for happy memories. A ride? OH NO! I couldn't possibly give you a ride, too much risk to ME; and these cars have poor brakes, no seat belts, no air bags, touchy steering, bouncy suspension, weak acceleration, a very unsafe car. But it is a great hobby and YOU really should get one of these cars and join this fantastic hobby, yes sir!!!

So, what will it be? Put up or shut up?

ANY ONE gets a ride in my cars.

My two cents worth, perhaps over valued. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 01:55 pm:

It's shut up in my case. You listed almost every reason not to give youngsters a ride but you claim to do it anyway. I hope nothing ever goes awry but the more often you do it the greater your chances are you'll be singing an entirely different tune after a lawyer gets involved when someone gets hurt. You'll be living in the proverbial "van down by the river" for giving a ride to a person when you obviously know it's a death trap and believe me that will come out in a trial. Your car. Your choice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 03:10 pm:

Come on people, just use a little common sense.
I have never turned a person away that wanted a ride. I refuse to live in fear of lawyers or being sued for being the person I am.
Common sense tells you should have a safe car or as safe as we can make it. Common sense will tell you to have control of your car and the places you drive.
It really is that simple.

If your still too scared... please ask yourself, why are you in this hobby?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Mackinnon on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 03:16 pm:

Wow, very mixed feelings on this thread. I would agree most of us here know full well the risk of taking someone for a ride in any vintage car, and I would agree it is a personal decision.

I think context makes a difference - 5 - 10 MPH rides in a closed lot at a car show protected by MTFCA insurance IF it is similar to the AACA event insurance (I am new to MTFCA and not qualified to speak to that, just my reaction to this thread) is a lot different than taking to a busy street.

Someone commented on cobbled together driver - well, to that I would say that I have been around the hobby long enough to see plenty of cases of shiny cars that have incredibly poor mechanicals, so a car assembled by a careful restorer at home could easily be a safer bet. Fact is the bystander has no way of knowing the safe car, right? I do see that. But overall I think it is incumbent upon any driver to maintain there vehicle in safe condition.

Again, it is a personal decision. I have had quite a few collector cars over the years, and given rides here and there, but declined doing a couple weddings with our Packard (not for money, either, which is a whole other slew of problems) due to risk factors, so I do get it.

That said, I remember my first ride in an antique car, a friend of my dad's Model A Roadster, 50 MPH or so in the rumble seat, egads, on the highway no less!! Been hooked ever since, and happy to report the car belongs to the same family so I still get to see it today decades later!! Would I have gone on to a 30+ year hobby and a dozen or so collector cars if not for that one ride? I really do not know -

I guess I am more in the camp willing to take a calculated risk, but that is just me. We are well insured and do not put jalopies on the road, and it is hardly skydiving. I am also not a chance taker by nature, and try to avoid moves like taking a prewar car in heavy traffic with people I do not know aboard. But given the right circumstances I see no real issue with a ride - no more so than having guests to the house, who could trip or fall into the pool, etc.

It is unfortunate but I respect those who are less willing to take a risk given today's legal environment and lack of responsibility for one's own decisions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 03:29 pm:

Personal injury Lawyers eat their young!!

There's one under EVERY rock these days!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 03:36 pm:

I have taken folks for rides and will do it gain as the opportunities arise. I don't seek them out but don't shy away. However, NO small kids without a parent. I've given rides in a touring car, coupe and my speedster. I always consider the passenger, the traffic and the situation. Some of the best rides have been with elderly from a rest home and we never went over about 25 and just on side streets. Then of course I took Mike Conrad with me as my navigator on a Hot 100 speedster event and changed his life :-)

I understand the concept of risks and try to manage my exposure but I refuse to live in fear of lawyers. If I live to regret that, at least I will have lived until then.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 06:07 pm:

I also will not let lawyers rule my life.
IF YOUR CAR IS UNFIT TO RIDE OTHERS THEN IT IS UNFIT TO BE ON THE ROAD!
I will ride those that ask.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 07:48 pm:

I agree with Bill and Dennis et al. I'll be dang if I let the fear of lawyers keep me from doing what I want. I'll put this one on the list right up there with cranking right handed. I'll do as I please and except the consequences and if it does ever happen, I'll be man enough to let you guys know so you can say "Told ya so".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 09:15 pm:

Bill Harper and Hal seem to state my feelings well.
If you don't have much, they cant take much.

If the cars are not fit for THEM to ride in for a treat, then how in the hell in the same court of law can we say they are safe for US to be driving on public roads? DUH ?
If this logic is going to become rampant the government will leave our guns laying on the coffee table and take our T's to the junkyard.

I know things are going down hill.The folks that are saying beware and be careful are not out of line completely. On the other side of the coin I was in a wreck and had to sue to get some justice as that is THE only way to get it legally.Truck driver negligence.

Bare this in mind as well. The tractor trailer that hit me, was carrying 1 million dollars in coverage. My settlement didn't put a dent in it.
People sue, people "win" but it is not like winning the lottery.
Make sure your T's are safe and let people decide if they want to ride and try to enjoy the hobby. Life is short,make the best of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 12:15 am:

Walt, you bring up a very good point. That ride did very much change my life! That ride and the skills you have driving that car is still something I talk about to my friends! It was not long after I owned my own speedster and if I remember we placed very well on the run too. Thank you for offering that opportunity. One ride can make a difference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Mackinnon on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 08:01 am:

Mike I think you just came up with a great slogan maybe we all should pick up when trying to promote interest in the old car hobby -

"One ride can make a difference"

Personally, I think AACA, MTFCA, etc. should run with that. Your two posts boil things down in a handful of words. Well said.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charles oakland on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 09:52 am:

Ed Jepperson took me for a scary first ride and the rest is history. Thanks Ed


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Kuhnash Southeastern Ohio on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 10:32 am:

I dont see how taking someone a ride in your T is any different than taking them a ride in a modern car, IF you have insurance. If you dont have insurance thats a whole different story. Whats the big deal?
I was a region president for our region of the AACA, I dont know what insurance people are talking about. Some in our club said oh yea we have insurance as a club because we are a region. It was supposed to be some sort of liability insurance if we had events, I asked Steve Moskowits he told me otherwise, been a couple years ago.
If your club is not incorporated your members could be held responsible for any accident that could happen to anyone at a club sanctioned event, I am no lawyer but that is how it was explained to me. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Mackinnon on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 01:43 pm:

Greg, I understand the confusion with AACA. I was on the BOD of the Central CT Region for several years, we pursued the issue with the National and while I do not have a copy of the written corrospondence they do provide a level of protection for sanctioned events. I understand Steve is still the Executive Director but the club has other leadership and I would base any decisions as a region on what written record with the business office and ideally a copy of the policy you get from the National HQ. I have no idea how MTFCA works but would suggest anyone putting on an event would want to know that. I know that is getting afield but wanted to clarify my earlier comments as based on my experience with AACA as well.

I do know insurance is one reason AACA is so strict on limiting membership in the local regions to national members in good standing, but I also agree mixed messages have come out of their business office over the time I was involved, not a criticism, just a fact.

In terms of incorporation you are absolutely right. There is a lot of red tape involved in running a club at the local as well as national level if you want to be up to snuff with insurance, liability, and even taxes nowadays.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 01:51 pm:

You fellows seem kind of cavalier concerning lawyers. I'm guessing most have never found themselves in the kind of situation we're talking about. Want to find your self alone in a battle? Watch insurance companies find they have a very effective reverse gear when you think their responsible for a payment. "If you don't have much they can't take much". Oh Brother. That's clear thinking. You don't know what you have till it's gone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 03:16 pm:

Charlie, you must have a story to tell about lawyer's in you life, you speak from experience right? I have to say I sirprsed by your adittude on this as a fellow model T owner. To come out and say that T is a death trap makes no sense to me at all. Those who know me know I spend a fair amount of my time promoting the hobby, model t's especially. The oddest thing I find is often the most negativity comes from fellow owners.
Just like a ride,your Opinions can make a difference to a new hobbyists or a generation.

My first ride in a model T came from a complete stranger on a car tour, it took a lot of courage for me to ask, and just like a friend that gave me that speedster ride it changed my life.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 04:01 pm:

In my country we have less lawyers so we have less worries about this sort of thing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 04:27 pm:

I'm starting to understand why the Dodge Brothers took a lawyers crutches and beat him with them!!!!!!!!!!!! Bud n Wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 04:37 pm:

Charlie, I understand there are times when things go in a unfair manner. People loose what little they have and so on. But my God man, we all can not live in total fear of everything.

If you give a person a ride in your Audi or Toy Yoda, and it decides to accelerate on it's own to a 100mph and you loose control of it,you are just as apt to get sued as you would if it were a T.

If a person lives in this much fear, perhaps they need to stay in bed. No wait, the mattress may contain a chemical known in california to cause cancer if rubbed on a lab rat for 5 months at a rate of 5 pounds a hour.

How do we get young folks interested in saving our cars as built? Run them off with the fear mongering of bad brakes ,bad steering and blah blah blah. No wonder they get stripped for street rods if this is announced all the time?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 06:04 pm:

Mack, you're compairing apples and oranges. Bill listed the problems any lawyer worth his salt is going to bring up. A lawyer might ask if you had your seat belts on in an Audi but if he asks you something like "I've been told you have to drive this car like it has no brakes" how would you answer? Compared to a modern the T IS a death trap. So's an A or any other car from that era. If you know all the stuff Bill listed and answer these questions truthfully you're going to end up in a sling. What's my point? Merely that I will not take the responsibility of killing/maiming someone. I live in a development. Flat roads no traffic. It's the only place I can actually break the posted speed limit (25) in a 40 mile area and I have given rides in here but you want to hear something weird? No one has ever asked for another ride. People look for the seat belts. They hang on to whatever they can and try to enjoy the experience. Honestly it makes me nervous. And I'm going to do this with a stranger? Ain't happenin'.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 06:56 pm:

Here is a form I have used in the past. You can argue how much it will help, but if I were sitting on a jury and this was introduced into evidence, it would affect my vote. It was designed for activities other than T rides but could be easily modified.


RELEASE OF LIABILITY

READ CAREFULLY - -THIS AFFECTS YOUR LEGAL RIGHTS


In exchange for participation in the activity of ____________________ organized by __________________, hereafter called the homeowner, of _______________, ____________ City, State and/or use of the property, facilities and services of the homeowner, I agree for myself and (if applicable) for the members of my family, to the following:

1. I agree to observe and obey all posted rules and warnings, and further agree to follow any oral instructions or directions given by the homeowner.

2. I recognize there are certain inherent risks associated with the above described activity and I assume full responsibility for personal injury to myself and further release and discharge the homeowner for injury, loss or damage out of my use of, or presence upon, the facilities of the homeowner, whether caused by the fault of myself, my family or other third parties.

3. I further agree to indemnify the homeowner against all claims, causes of action, damages, judgments, costs or expenses, including attorney fees and other litigation costs which may in any way arise from my presence upon the facilities of the homeowner.

4. I agree to pay for all damages to the facilities of the homeowner caused by my negligent, reckless or willful actions.

5. Any legal or equitable claim that may arise from participation in the above described activity shall be resolved under (your state)law.


I HAVE READ THIS DOCUMENT AND UNDERSTAND IT. I FURTHER UNDERSTAND THAT BY SIGNING THIS RELEASE I VOLUNTARILY SURRENDER CERTAIN LEGAL RIGHTS.


Dated: ________________

Signature: __________________________

Address: ____________________________________________________________


In case of emergency please call _______________________

(relationship) _________________________


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nick Miller on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 07:48 pm:

On a trip to Machu Picchu, the travel agency had a comment that was in their agreement. It was that if you are not comfortable with the risk of the trip, you should stay home. We would have missed a wonderful experience if we stayed home.

That seems to be the same risk of the ownership of these great cars.

Nick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob from Nova Scotia on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 08:08 pm:

The unfortunate reality is we live in a litigation based society. Greed, fear and just plain idiocity are the name of the game. A month ago we had an Air Canada A320 clip the ILS antennas on approach. Very hard landing. meaning the landing gear was ripped off, and the plane was extensively damaged. No cause has been released yet. 12 hours had not passed and a law firm had signed passengers up for a class action lawsuit. There were a few minor injuries and one person aboard required a stay and surgery.... the captain!!! I watched with utter fascination as a man stated on national television that the aircraft came to a stop and he opened the door and ran as fast as he could away from the site. This same man was asked at the first of the flight if he could open the emergency exit and assist passengers in case of an emergency. Many others say they will never fly again. Fear greed and stupidity in one three minute newscast. Out of all passengers, only one said he had no intentions on suing, he was fine, and noone was killed or permanantly injured. No sir, lawyers can ruin you. They make money taking yours from you. I would never sue a fellow car owner for an accident. But I'm not everyone out there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 08:10 pm:

All Mt. Everest guide companies have the same statement. Avalanches included. Drawn up by company lawyers. Their covered. Your not. This will probably go on a bit longer so let me say, after some thought, that I don't believe the guys that are saying they don't have much to lose and are willing to give it up. That's just bait to pull in more differing opinions not a factual statement. I am, just like you, sitting in a comfy chair with the AC on and the lawn sprinkler running and no bodies going to get the chance to get any of it over some hobby.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 08:24 pm:

I'm not saying I don't have much to loose. I'm saying the chances of having an accident are fairly remote. Having an accident on the rare occasion I have a stranger for a passenger are even more remote. Then there's the chance of whether said passenger is a jerk who thinks he can get rich quick off of me and/or my insurance company. Then there's how a judge or jury might rule. So by the time you get through all this list of stuff that may or may not go my way, I'm thinking the odds are overwhelmingly in my favor, so I choose not to worry about it.

You can fly in an airplane and enjoy the flight, or you can worry the whole time whether or not you're going to crash, or you can stay at the house and be relatively safe from an aircraft related injury. I choose the first category. You are free to choose the latter if that's how you want it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 09:50 pm:

Charlie, My assets are worth around 60,000 total. Tools,cars,socks and stocks.So I don't have a lot in the big scheme of things. The chair I am in is mine,the window unit is mine, but the house it is in is not. Facts not fiction or bait.

Similar issues come up at tractor shows. What IF a tractor runs over some one? What IF a steam engine blows up like that Case did a few years ago? Do we scrap our cars and tractors and share pictures and story's?
Life is risky no matter how you live it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 10:37 pm:

It is not a death trap. Period. I would never drive or endanger my passengers with such nonsense.

I'm done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Friday, May 08, 2015 - 11:08 pm:

Like many here have stated, life is short and you should live it to the fullest, and that for me does indeed include my beloved "death trap" Model T. Anyone that has been here long enough knows that most T owners here are always looking for ways to improve or enhance their T. Never have i seen a post here asking how they could cut corners when safety was concerned. Get out and drive your T, and stop worrying about some people who tell you otherwise.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 12:03 am:

I will give a ride to anyone who asks for one, even if it is just around a gas station. I did that once with a beautiful brunette. :-)

Life is meant to be lived. Yes, I can go over 50 in my speedster, but I do not have to. If I go 5 mph the kids and parents are thrilled. Just letting them sit in the car for pictures brings a lot of smiles.

I am a pharmacist and work for a very large medical group. They impress upon us that if anything happens you need to say you are SORRY. They know that that one word will work wonders. Studies have shown that if you say you are sorry people are much less likely to want to sue.

If you ride a horse or a go cart you have to sign a waiver. I agree with some of those above that most people who sign a waiver realize there is some risk involved. It will not necessarily protect the owner of a Model T 100%, but it does mitigate some of the risk.

I am glad this topic has provided for a lot of discussion. Thanks to all of you who participated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 10:00 am:

It is a good discussion but everyone is missing the point.

If you have a safe functioning vehicle, obey traffic laws and don't drive like you're on a race track, you shouldn't have any problems. Some of the cars I've seen on this site and the method of repair scare me enough that I wouldn't want to even ride in it.

Put aside the desire for a "budget repair" when it comes to steering, spokes and brakes. These are areas most prone to cause accidents and raise the question of owner negligence.

T-On!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 10:18 am:

Ah yes a liability form. Every morning I sign one when I begin my day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 10:50 am:

I'm glad some one finally said it. I'll bet most guys here are pontificating about the actual known condition of their cars. They've been giving rides and never gave a thought about the possible outcome or their responsibilities concerning that outcome. It scared them a bit but like MMO and stabil they'll defend their actions to the death. How many can state flat out that their car is in the same condition as say Dean Yoder's or Constantine's? And look at all the problems he ran into on his trip. Nothing horrendous but it's 90+ years old and stuff happens. Again, your car your choice but don't tell me that your willing to take a chance on losing everything you've worked for over giving a stranger a ride and that includes the fact that you might have squat because if squat is taken from you you'll miss it. So will your family.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 10:53 am:

I'm willing to take a chance on loosing everything I've worked for over giving a stranger a ride.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 11:05 am:

Really? Does your wife agree?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Conte on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 01:15 pm:

What kind of "ride" are we talking about?

A ride on the NJ turnpike, long winding country roads or a short distance in the parking lot?

I can't see the harm in giving someone a short slow ride in a safe area. It's when someone tries some showboating that things can go wrong.

Watch Wheels That Fail or a Youtube videos with the guys popping wheelies and standing on the seat and you'll see the results, not that I expect anyone can pop a wheelie with a 1923 Fordor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 01:21 pm:

Rear wheelie in a Model T? No.

Side wheelie? Yes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 01:43 pm:

Charlie,Hal's wife is a fine woman and loves this hobby as much or more-so than Hal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 02:23 pm:

Not mocking anyone. Just asking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 04:01 pm:

I will ride anyone who wants to go and they can sue my A$$ off if they want. I'm so freaking old by the time all the suits/counter suits take place I'll be dead and won't give a damn who gets what. And screw the heirs...I've worked hard for what I have and I'm spending it as fast as I can!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 04:11 pm:

That works too. Possibly the most sensible answer given on the subject yet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 04:20 pm:

I would think if [one] is that worried its time to sell!! Not only that but so [one] does not get sued after the sale,said T should be donated to the club's museum!! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 06:51 pm:

Charlie B,

Yes, she agrees and says this whole thread is, and I quote, "ludicrous".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marc Roberts, York, Pennsylvania on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 07:02 pm:

If you read Dave Hjortnaes' original post, very few responders have actually given him feedback on the specific question he asked. The form Bud Holzschuh posted may be fine in Florida, I really do not know, but I do know it would not be a good form to use in my state. The case law varies a good deal from one state to the next in what elements are required for an effective release. In Pennsylvania, for example, it is required that the release be specific as to the risk being assumed. The release I would draft for a Pennsylvania client would specifically mention the absence of restraints, lack of modern crashworthiness standards, possibility of ejectment from the vehicle, and the risk of not only personal injury, but also death. I have done many hazardous activity releases for clients in various businesses, but I would hesitate to supply a form for use anywhere but but my own state, where I am admitted to the bar and familiar with the law. For anyone who has concerns of this kind, get with a local attorney, one with personal injury defense experience if possible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 12:48 am:

Hal, I would have bet everything I own that you would say something along those lines. LOL! Sorry but I still don't believe the statement " I'm willing to lose every thing I own to give a stranger a ride". Seriously, it makes no sense to me. Care to explain?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 02:49 am:

If someone sues they are probably gay and maybe they are scared. If they are scared maybe they should run, Run little pussy run!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 06:21 am:

Charlie B,

Its just not something I'm worried about. Perhaps it's the difference in geographical location. I don't know anyone who has ever been sued. I only know a couple of people who have sued anyone else. They got little by the time it was over, and I lost respect for them for doing it. Like I said above, I feel the chances of me losing everything are so slim, I am indeed willing to give a ride to anyone who wants one. Its like many other things, the benefits outweigh the risks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Mackinnon on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 08:02 am:

An umbrella policy is a very small annual expense to allow one to enjoy the little things - bringing a person on a ride in one of our old cars, having dogs outside where some random kid could possibly wander on the property, maybe a tree branch that is over the property line, etc. While everyone's situation is different, reasonable steps should allow one to go about there business without too much concern for worst case.

I think our policy was between $500 - 800 this year, it wraps around everything else, and I believe that is a typical offer from any of the big insurers. Just a thought for those who are bothered by this sort of thing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 08:18 am:

Steven,you bring up a interesting point. It is a sad world when parents can fail totally at doing their jobs and someone else can legally be held liable.
When I got smacked by a tractor trailer I had to go thru the process of suing the insurance company and got a small portion of a mediocre settlement while workers comp got their money back and my lawyer bought another Mercedes.
Once I exhausted all options for appeal of my social security case, again, civil action against the federal government was the last option.
Yes, I filed paper work and went thru the process of suing the social security administration,the district court judge and Eric Holder. I have the paper work to prove it. And I did it without the help of a lawyer as no one would take my case that my previous lawyer screwed up.Social security was of course the only 1 that filed back and the other 2 did not respond to the papers meaning they went with the decision of the judge.
I lost after all that because there is some little classification number of a job that consist of busing tables in a small cafe that they felt I could do part time therefore did not meet disability requirements.
So when the subject of suing comes up I know it from that side of the fence.
If you want to have some real fun, sit down and try to write out a opening brief and later a response brief to a bunch of statements from a New Jersey social security attorney. 3 weeks I sat here typing and printing to get it laid out right and digging thru 650 pages of transcripts and crap.

Sorry for the rant but sometimes I get the feeling a couple here think I am just a dumbass and that I talk out of ignorance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 12:29 pm:

We're just too small as individuals to fight these guys. I feel your pain Mack and can't fathom suing the government. You guys may be right about nothing (usually) happening but I'll say again MOST of the people I've given rides to came away some what confused about it. They didn't seem to enjoy it much. Too foreign of lost in time to understand the past. Unable to aquaint it with modern driving.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Schmidt ..... Seattle on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 01:43 pm:

Gentlemen. .... Your comments on this forum cannot be deleted. 5 years from now, after an accident, a lawyer will use your comment against you in court. Like if you say....the model T is a death trap, bad brakes, poor steering, no airbag, etc.
And as far as "I would never sue a fellow car collector", well you wouldn't, but your kin folk will if you die.
Something to think about next time you hit the post button on any forum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Conte on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 03:37 pm:

Steve,

I hate to be so blunt but that is ridiculous!

If we go by your thinking then we might as well stop commenting altogether.

What some unknown commenter says in this or any forum means nothing in a court of law.
If that were the case then lawyers would be combing every forum and every article about anything related to their case.

If I say the 2015 Kia Soul is a death trap does that mean I am right? Would I be considered an expert.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 03:53 pm:

Heresay I believe it is. First hand testimony is what they'd be looking for. A sharp lawyer would call in an "expert" after some checking and tear some one else apart if he asked the right questions concerning safety. The early Corvairs, the GM's with faulty ignition switches, the pick-ups with the poorly mounted fuel tanks and the (Toyotas ?) with their run away accelerators all got that designation and it always concerned safety in court cases. OK, I take back the death trap I pinned on the T but safety? It hasn't got any. Every accident back then was considered pilot error. There was no thought as to the passengers & driver.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 06:51 pm:

In Texas your umbrella policy will only cover your antique car if it is insured by the umbrella insurer, at least Nationwide told me that the umbrella would not cover me In My Model T since it was insured by J C Taylor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Mackinnon on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 06:58 pm:

Ted I understand and of course each state has its own laws - obviously consult with your agent, etc. here in CT, my collector cars are insured with a specialty policy that happens to differ from my regular auto, homeowners & umbrella - same liability limits though, for what its worth. All disclosed when we applied for the umbrella. I might only suggest you look for an insurer that will truly cover you. Just a suggestion that some may find helpful..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 07:25 pm:

Thank you for taking back your comment Charlie.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 07:43 pm:

Maybe we should go back to using fake names and not giving locations, so the lawyers can't pin our comments on us.:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russell Prideaux Margaret River West Oz on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 08:39 pm:

Hmm!.. I am guessing my biggest chance of being sued would be if they deliberately or willfully damaged and/ or showed gross disrespect for said vehicle they were given the free ride in.
But then that would be for personal damages to their posterior from my boot!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 08:53 pm:

Actually, what is said on this forum can be used as 'expert' witness information by an attorney. If anyone of us is a juror listening to a case we knew nothing about and the 'seasoned' attorney shared with us the conversations and extensive knowledge of what is said on a well versed forum, we would believe him. Heck, a seasoned and wise attorney would pose as a new hobbyist asking questions........

Besides, the reason we need attorneys is some cases is because for example, ......No one ever went to jail for murder. They went to jail for the conviction of murder........The system can be as good as it can be bad.

The only truth lies in your spiritual conviction. Ha hA hA HA , sorry, didn't mean to start a philosophical debate.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 09:41 pm:

I lean towards what is posted here as being hearsay.
Not many of us here have had formal education in car design so most of what we know and say is learned from our limited experience. A few do repair and restore T's for a living but they are still entitled to a opinion.
The lawyers I have had to deal with like to dig back in history to John doe vs. John smith or other similar cases. I don't think a decent defense lawyer would let anything gathered from a discussion forum pass over as evidence without a good fight. They would go all the way back to accident reports during the time our cars were in regular use.
Sadly what is not in our favor is what other drivers do to our cars and occupants and what may happen if WE are totally in the right.

We can repair our car's and have them meet the standards set forth by the show and tour charts and they meet safety inspections in our states and country's,but some other ding bat in a Toy Yoda can come along and wipe us off the map in a instant. Then what?
You must bear in mind that for example here in NC a person can buy a car,get a insurance policy for 50,000 to cover 1 injured and property or 100,000 for all and property? 50,000 dollars will hardly cover a 3 day stay in the hospital for 1 person.So that puts you loosing whatever else it cost for your medical,your car,and the expenses for everyone else in your car. "Oh I have under-insured motorist coverage" Ok, how much is that coverage,50,000? Well that beats nothing,but if you are in a comma for 2 weeks,it is long gone!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 10:02 pm:

I know I have rambled off the original topic but we are talking about liability and it can rest on any one,us or the other party. We need to be educated on both sides of the issue.
Ok so lets say you get some insurance to protect you in a case of someone getting hurt in your car.How much is enough? What are the loopholes in the policy?





Live life to the fullest but Protect yourselves.And those you care about.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, May 11, 2015 - 07:50 am:

Robert brings up a good point in his last line.

I got hit on my motorcycle in 1986 which resulted in a compound fracture to my leg. Put me out of work for 6 months. The immobilization of my ankle allowed my arthritis from a previous injury while in the Army, to get many times worse. I have not been able to stand on my feet for long periods since. I could have sued the man and tried to get everything he owned. However, I would not want anyone to do that to me. He did not do it on purpose. It was just one of those things that happen. Not to ram my religion down anyone else's throat, but the Bible says "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Some may call it Karma, but I trust that the Lord would not allow someone else to take everything I own, simply because I made some mistake. It's just what I choose to believe. Some may consider this na´ve and foolhardy. That's OK too. I would have a hard time believing in this faith, had I chose to sue the old man that hit me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Monday, May 11, 2015 - 08:55 am:

Hal -- I am like you !

Even though some people think that the updated Bible says - "Do unto others before they do unto you!"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Monday, May 11, 2015 - 09:19 am:

Short & Sweet, I will give any one who is interested a ride in my "T" Especially Veterans!
or as Admiral Farragut said "Damn the torpedoes,full speed ahead!"


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