It's official , prewar car bug has bitten me !!

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: It's official , prewar car bug has bitten me !!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Wednesday, May 13, 2015 - 10:14 pm:

stopped at a garage sale this weekend after my boys and I had gotten our Tudor out , the gentleman at the sale had some 70's molar parts , we begin talking about his recent (12 yr ) restoration of a 72 duster , I tell him that eve been working on a 1926 Tudor ... He says "want to buy a model A ?" I go to the barn with him and this is what I find there . I ask price , he says 500.00 and he has the title , 1931 model A deluxe town sedan .not a T , but coming to my barn next week !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Wednesday, May 13, 2015 - 10:30 pm:

Nice find. A ton of wood in those sedans, but they are a nice car ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Wednesday, May 13, 2015 - 10:30 pm:

What happens when you mix an A and a T in the barn together? Do they still multiply?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dana A. Crosby in Glendale, Az on Wednesday, May 13, 2015 - 10:31 pm:

well done! I've had 2 of them, both Briggs bodied. 1st one I bought for $100 in 1966. 2nd on e for $600 in 1971. Didn't finish either one. Wish I had.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, May 13, 2015 - 10:43 pm:

If it's a slant windshield then the amount of wood is not much. Do you hear Fordbarn calling...:-)
RE; Do they still multiply? Yes you get a bouncing baby "B"!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dana A. Crosby in Glendale, Az on Wednesday, May 13, 2015 - 11:43 pm:

Looks like a "slant" to me. Late 31.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 12:58 am:

I agree, at least it has the S/W rear bumperetts (they are unique to this model)--as are their brackets. Yes, very little wood in them, top area, and upholstery areas. I've restored a few A Fordors in my life, so if you have any questions, I'll try to dig through my memory banks for answers!
BTW, If you don't know it, you STOLE that car!!! Torn fenders & all. BTW, back fenders are a bit different too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 01:21 am:

Talk about being in the right place at the right time!........ :-O


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 07:26 am:

That's about the condition our '29 Town Sedan was in when we got it. Unlike the Slant Windshield, the Town Sedan is a rolling lumberyard. And yes, we had to replace a good bit of it. Paid more than that too......15 years ago! That will be a good looking car when you are done. Good find.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 07:57 am:

Travis,

Yes, you are “officially bitten by the pre-war bug”! Looks like the Model A has been stored in a dry area and that is great.

The book “The Ford Model “A” “As Henry Built It” by George DeAngelis, Edward P. Francis, and Leslie R. Henry has some excellent coverage on the Slant Windshield Standard Fordor (160-A) , Town Sedan (160-B), and Deluxe Fordor (160-C) on pages 195 to 199. I thought it was that book, but I did not see the paragraph that said something to the effect: We are not sure if the Standard Fordor was a “stripped down” Town Sedan or the Town Sedan was a “dressed up” Standard Ford but the effect is the same. The numbers 160-A etc. describe how Ford designated the different bodies. The earlier 1928-1931 Standard Fordor and Town Sedans that had a straight front windshield were also produced by both Murray Body Company and the Briggs Body Company. For those earlier 1928-1931 cars the Murray had an arch at the top of the windows while the Briggs Bodies were straight at the top of the windows. The doors etc. did NOT interchange between those two companies. And they had a wood skeleton with the metal body panels nailed onto the wood. But for the slant windshield bodies – Ford directed both Murray and Briggs to build the bodies so the parts were interchangeable. So for the Slant Windshield Fordor and Town Sedan bodies both the Murray and Briggs bodies had the arched windows. And those cars do not have any structural wood skelton. I.e. if the termites eat all the wood out of the body – the door still open and close fine. (See the Ford Wood site to see the diffence in the amount of wood in a earlier Fordor and the Slant Windshield Fordors at: http://fordwood.com/fordors.htm ). If the body maker’s tag is on the car – it is easy to tell which company produced the body. If the body maker tag is no longer attached to the firewall then from a photo of the car – you would probably not be able to tell which company produced the car. But if you go to the Ford Garage site main page http://www.fordgarage.com/ and then to the Murray vs Briggs Slant Windshield page at: http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/murraybriggs.htm it gives you some additional ways you can determine which company produced the body.

From memory – I thought that Ford also produced the Slant Windshield bodies. If that is correct there would have been three companies producing the bodies. But I was not able to locate a reference that said Ford also produced the Slant Windshield Fordor/Town Sedan bodies. Ok – it was a quick look. The only reference for that I found was my own forum posting – and until I can verify where I got that from – I don’t want to use it as a reference. (Usually I have a reference – but it is good to know where it came from so if we discover that it is wrong we can quit quoting it. For example page 57 in “Tin Lizzie” shows a photo with the caption that sort of goes “First public showing of the Model T Ford on Nov 13, 1908, at Olympia Exhibition in England”. In 2008 Jem Bowkett and others working on the “English Model T Ford” book were able to prove the “Tin Lizzie” photo was from the 1909 rather than the 1908 show. See: http://modelt.org/discus/messages/2/1884.html So I think it is good to know the source document. )

Note from the two photos you posted your car could be a 160-A Standard Ford that had cowl lights installed as an option or a 160-B Town Sedan that had the cowl lights included in the cost of the car. Once you have the car, if the interior trim is still in place it is very easy to tell which it was. The town sedan’s had an extra piece of trim beneath each of the windows. If you would like some help in figuring out if it originally was a Town Sedan or Standard Fordor, please post some photos of the body tag (located on the engine side of the firewall on the side with the gas line and of the doors showing the inside window trim.

And I would recommend joining one of the Model A Clubs there is a wealth of information there also.

Again, congratulations on your “new” Ford.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 07:58 am:

RUN Don't walk to the Model A section of the Ford Barn and post a picture or two of your Model A.
You will get more info and help than you can use.

When I got my dad's 31 Town Sedan and posted a picture there, people told me within a few months when it was built and gave me information overload.

They were extremely helpful (LIKE THIS FORUM) in my efforts to get it going again in spite of a frozen motor.

Consider cleaning it up and getting it running!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Mackinnon on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 08:05 am:

Great find, Travis!! We are also actively looking for an "A" (had a '30 tudor for a long time and miss it) roadster, pickup or ideally, a roadster-pick up in the NE area.

But back to yours - the slant window sedan is a great looking Model A. Up here, a lot of guys actually prefer the closed cars - and 4 doors in particular. This for touring late into the season, and the comfort of the front bench seat in the sedans. Although the wood adds a component to the work if it needs woodwork, they also "feel" pretty solid - doors close with a nice thunk, etc. weigh a bit more but ride nice. I am learnign "T"s but I know "A"s fairly well - not hard to keep on the road.

Good luck with your car, nice to buy something you know you can multiply your initial investment on should you choose to seel right away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 10:12 am:

Thanks guys , really looking forward to getting her home , the gentleman said that it had a Lincoln gold seal engine put in it in the 60's ? I have no idea what that means ( it was his father in laws car ) they are going out of town for a vacation so I have to wait to get it out and home , funny thing is it was only about a half mile from my house and I've driven by it in that old barn nearly everyday for the past 25 years you never know what's going to turn up when :-) will post more pics when it's out in the daylight :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 02:26 pm:

Hap gave you a good bunch of info, and my memory is also that Ford built a small quantity of these bodies. Often times there is a tag on the firewall for the Briggs or Murray bodies. As I recall there is someplace else to tell if you have Ford body--if the interior is out! I forget what & where! On the earlier wood-framed bodies, there are differences in the Murray bodies, mostly in the '28 versions especially in the rear seat area--and also the very early fordors had their own windshield frame, also another difference between the Murray and Briggs bodies is the bottom trim molding; on Briggs it's part of the body, on Murrays it's part of the door--but all this is academic to your situation. The S/W is an animal unto itself, although I THINK the front doors are shared with the A-400. I've been away from this stuff for a while. I have a friend who has THREE A-400; they aren't the rarest A made, the blind-back S/W fordor beats them by quite a bit in lowest production numbers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 02:49 pm:

David , Yes he did !! Thank you Hap !! I will be looking forward to getting home for evaluation as soon as possible , I can't start on it right away as I'm still working on the 26 Tudor , not to mention the 26 roadster that took the backseat to it. Don't want to throw too many additional irons in the fire !! I have a warm dry space for it , I will probably spray the undercarriage with some kind of preservative maybe , and moth balls in and around to keep critters out of what's left of the interior , it will also be up on stands . Any other suggestions are welcome :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, Mostly in Dearborn on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 03:06 pm:

Travis,
You paid less for yours than I did for my 160-B Murray back in '78. I'd be curious to know if your fuel shut off is under the tank or under the hood as I've seen many SW Briggs bodies with a flat firewall and a valve under the tank. Also I'm curious if your rear doors have pockets or whether there's a purse on the back of the front seat.

My wife is predicting rain for the Old Car Fest so she says she's entering our '31 instead of bringing her '24.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 03:50 pm:

This is a picture of our T ready for a parade and A, just after we pulled it out of the barn.




The T came out of the barn a few years ago and the A last year. Both had been in storage since 1964.

I wiped the T down with MMO, put air in the tires, changed the oil, had the coils rebuilt, installed new spark plugs, and added gas before starting and using it.
It has the original seats and all the wood is original.

The A is in a bit worse shape because the motor is stuck, but it has the original interior and I was amazed to find that the rodents had not lived in it.
Like the T I rubbed down with MMO to stop the rust, and put air in the tires.
I am now getting ready to install a replacement motor.

In the olden days, I drove the A to high school when my 1941 Ford coupe was broken (most of the time) and took the HS cheerleaders to a football game in the T.

I thought about selling the A until I was overruled by my wife.

Life with a T and A has to be close to Heaven on Earth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 05:13 pm:

Tom , rear doors have pockets , posting a picture , not sure about shut off , should have it home as soon as the gentleman gets back from vacation , Fred , nice cars , we have a 26 Tudor in boiled linseed oil and a 26 roadster pick up ( my first T bought in 97 ) the pickup is what I'd started restoring when the others came along :-) fate I think ! , gotta get them done before the A , my wife humors me , but says I have way too many projects lol , but we have 3 boys under 18 it'll give us plenty of wrench time together , my 9 year old worked his butt off on the Tudor and there was no stopping him from going to take a look at the A , he hopped right in and said " looks like a good one dad , let's buy it !! ) funny !!S


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 05:45 pm:

Travis,

Higher resolution photos will make it easier, but I'm 99% sure I see the curved extra trim piece that the Town Sedans had and the Standard Fordor did not have. Assuming they are original to the car it is/was a Town Sedan.

However, you can restore it any way you desire. Add the trim it is a Town Sedan with the optional cowl lamps (holes are in the cowl for those lamps). Or leave the trim pieces (they remove when you remove the window trim) and you have a Town Sedan.

Again we look forward to seeing additional photos etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 07:08 pm:

Thanks Hap , I'm almost certain it is original to the car , it also has the courtesy light in the rear above the back seat , does this mean it's a deluxe town ?? Really chomps at the bit to get her home , but have to wait :-( , oh well gives me more time for the Tudor ( and to find a spot for the A ) :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, May 14, 2015 - 07:22 pm:

Not sure about the '31's, but I think in '29, only the Town Sedan had the fold down arm rest in the center of the rear seat. There was also something about cowl lights, but I believe the Deluxe's had those as well as the Town Sedan. They look to be missing on the one above, but I think I see the holes where they were.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, May 15, 2015 - 02:55 am:

If I weren't so lazy, I could go back into the bedroom and dig the A Judging Standards out to check a lot of this stuff out. Yes, early '31s did not have the indented firewall, and would have the shut-off inside under the tank.
I see both the holes for the cowl lights and the window trim piece in your photos. What an incredible find! The original trim around the fabric center is steel with a rubber piece the covers the nail hole slot. Most A suppliers don't show it, but the early V-8 folks do & it's the same piece! Wish I had some digital copies of the one I did years ago, the prints are somewhere in a file cabinet!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, Mostly in Dearborn on Friday, May 15, 2015 - 07:16 am:

Travis,

Your 160-B is called a Town Sedan. It is a deluxe model because of the cowl lights, upgraded upholstery with rear armrests on the side panels, interior garnish moldings and different window cranks and door handles. You also have an oval rear dome light with a pillar switch instead of a round one in the center.

The 160-C Deluxe Fordor and Town Sedan shared the same interior appointments and fabric selections. What makes a 160-C a Deluxe Fordor is the two windows on each side instead of three. None of the 160 models came with a center armrest officially although there are a few early built cars that have this feature. That is a separate discussion that pops up in Fordbarn once in a while.

Some other items unique on this car is that you may have one or two sun visors. When you examine the top wood, you may find evidence that your car only came with one sun visor. You also only have one window shade. Since the rear side windows open, they didn't put shades on them in '31. As you work on this car, keep every nut bolt and part you take off as there are many hard to find pieces on these models.

In regards to the inside shut off, most of those having it that I've seen are Briggs bodies. Same with the purse on the rear of the drivers seat. Since you have pockets on the rear door panels, I'm guessing you have the recessed firewall and a Murray data plate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, May 15, 2015 - 08:57 am:

I really like the Model A Ford Club of America site located at:

There is a list of body numbers at: http://www.mafca.com/downloads/Technical/Body_Numbers.pdf that you can down load for free. Below is a screen shot of the Fordor, Deluxe Fordor, and Town Sedan body numbers. Note that Ford did NOT have a Deluxe Town Sedan listed.

At: https://www.mafca.com/data_bodycodes.html you can click on the “Passenger Car/Light Truck (“A”) link and it brings up the body numbers along with many photos of some of the body styles.

The Slant Windshield Standard Fordor 160-A for 1931 1/2 is shown at: https://www.mafca.com/photos/bodystyles/31-fordor-standard-160A.jpg

The Slant Windshield Town Sedan 160-B for 1931 1/2 is shown at: https://www.mafca.com/photos/bodystyles/31-fordor-town-sedan-160-B.jpg

The Slant Windshield Deluxe Fordor 160-C for 1931 1/2 is shown at: https://www.mafca.com/photos/bodystyles/31-fordor-deluxe-160C.jpg

Note the 160-A, 160-B, and 160-C were introduced part way through the 1931 model year. From page 195 of “The Ford Model A as Henry Built It” they discuss the straight windshield Fordor models that were produced prior to May 1931. That would indicate to me that the production to the Slant Windshield 160-A,B,C began around May 1931. The SW Town Sedan was also the model that Ford used for the 20,000,000 Ford.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off (and yes I also have a 160-B and have had in the past several 160-Bs, two 160-C very rough bodies)


I really like the Model A Ford Club of America site located at:

There is a list of body numbers at: http://www.mafca.com/downloads/Technical/Body_Numbers.pdf that you can down load for free. Below is a screen shot of the Fordor, Deluxe Fordor, and Town Sedan body numbers. Note that Ford did NOT have a Deluxe Town Sedan listed.

At: https://www.mafca.com/data_bodycodes.html you can click on the “Passenger Car/Light Truck (“A”) link and it brings up the body numbers along with many photos of some of the body styles.

The Slant Windshield Standard Fordor 160-A for 1931 1/2 is shown at: https://www.mafca.com/photos/bodystyles/31-fordor-standard-160A.jpg

The Slant Windshield Town Sedan 160-B for 1931 1/2 is shown at: https://www.mafca.com/photos/bodystyles/31-fordor-town-sedan-160-B.jpg

The Slant Windshield Deluxe Fordor 160-C for 1931 1/2 is shown at: https://www.mafca.com/photos/bodystyles/31-fordor-deluxe-160C.jpg

Note the 160-A, 160-B, and 160-C were introduced part way through the 1931 model year. From page 195 of “The Ford Model A as Henry Built It” they discuss the straight windshield Fordor models that were produced prior to May 1931. That would indicate to me that the production to the Slant Windshield 160-A,B,C began around May 1931. The SW Town Sedan was also the model that Ford used for the 20,000,000 Ford.

Note, I believe the gas shut off on the inside verses on the engine side of the fire wall is more a matter of when the body was produced rather than who produced the body. To my knowledge all the USA Model A production switched to the fuel shut off on the engine side of the firewall during 1931. The Slant Windshield Fordors and Town Sedans were introduced and then shortly after that the location of the shut was changed on all the cars. There would have been some overlap when both styles were used. And there are photos of the flat dash that was restamped for the outside fuel shut off. Henry didn't waste parts. Of course if Ford had supplied a lot of the flat firewalls to one of the companies and not replaced them with the later “indented firewall” the body maker may have continued to use up the earlier style on the bodies they made. But I suspect Ford would not want to have both inside and outside firewall cars coming down the same assembly line. They used different carbs and fuel lines.

As Tom said - be sure to keep all the nuts and bolts.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off (and yes I also have a 160-B and have had in the past several 160-Bs, two 160-C very rough bodies)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Friday, May 15, 2015 - 12:20 pm:

Thanks guys ! With all this information it's going to be hard to wait on restoring the car , already want to take more pics and check out the details you are giving me :-) but I HAVE to get the Tudor and roadster done first . I will post more pics when I get her home :-) Anyone heard of the gold seal engine he was telling me about ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Friday, May 15, 2015 - 12:24 pm:

Thanks guys ! With all this information it's going to be hard to wait on restoring the car , already want to take more pics and check out the details you are giving me :-) but I HAVE to get the Tudor and roadster done first . I will post more pics when I get her home :-) Anyone heard of the gold seal engine he was telling me about ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Saturday, May 16, 2015 - 10:54 pm:

Put the carb I got from Stan Howe on again today , found out after some issues that my little helper ( my 9 year old son ) had "adjusted the carb up for me " and had actually broke the spray needle out of its body , put on an NOS needle that I found in my dads stuff , adjusted and started right up , runs super !! Thanks to Stan many times over !! Very happy with this carbeurator !! Idles , runs and sounds great !! I had been running with an old carb that clearly needs rebuilt , this car was last licensed in 1952 .and I clearly need to learn how to drive a T :-) but we are on our way in that direction . Trying to find room for the s/w 31 got some time till the gentleman gets back from vacation so want to be ready :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 11:09 pm:

Got the A home , a couple of new pics under old car bug II heading , I'll try to post here as well. Murray body 160B , original title , I'm the second owner , body is crunched up but solid , definitely a project , but doable :-)


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