This happened yesterday on a four day HCCA tour "Brass in Berks" in Morgantown / East Marlborough, PA.
Apparently the T slowed down to turn onto Mill Road from Doe Run Road when a modern KIA SUV passed on the left, hit the left front wheel of the T and crashed into the ditch. Thankfully everyone in the T was uninjured. The passengers in the SUV were transported to a hospital.
Except for a broken wheel, the "12" seems fine.(looks more like a '13, really - maybe made during 1912, thus misidentified)
(Message edited by Roger K on May 21, 2015)
I do not understand why the H - E - double hockey sticks folks are in such a hurry that they have to pass .....
Slow down - arrive alive
Da**! My Father who was a State Trooper often said "If you cause an accident because you were in a hurry, your drivers license should be taken for 3 months and your insurance company should not be allowed to settle with you for the same amount of time." All that was needed to avoid this Wreck was to slow down and have one of the passengers in the SUV take a video with their smart phone as you passed them safely. BUMMER
Trouble is, the folks in the SUV will blame the Model T.
This brings back a scary moment I had on one of the first trips out of the neighborhood with the T after we got it out of storage.
I was on Rt 85 (a secondary road with a 35 MPH speed limit) and came to the over pass at RT 101.
A SUV decided that they had to pass me on the left and immediately take the ramp on the right to save a few seconds.
They passed with a few inches of my front fender.
If I had not been watching -- never mind You understand.
After that I put the following sign on the back of the car and people have left me a little more room,
But I drive as the person in the interview said "like people are aiming for me"
I sure hope all these clubs we've been involved in for years speak up and advocate for the hobby once local governments start to restrict access to the roads for our vehicles.
Just a wild guess, but I bet the injured parties in the SUV were unbelted.
Looks like the Ford will need at least new spindles, and maybe some other front end parts.
Obviously the funny looking bumper didn't help.
My first thought as well, Steve. Such a simple precaution and still so widely ignored. In the same vein as the police reports I read in our weekly free newspaper that include the phrase "...stolen from an unlocked vehicle."
Common Sense isn't as common as it used to be, Mike.
I sure hope they didn't tow the T away on the back wheels?
Steve take a close look at the front axel I think it is twisted what I find amazing is the spokes and felloe seem to be intact.
Bottom Line Up Front: I’m glad no one was hurt more than they were. Cars can be repaired or replaced.
(Note all photos unless marked otherwise are form “The Times Herald” media center at http://media.timesherald.com/2015/05/20/photos-2-hurt-in-crash-involving-suv-a-1912-ford-model-t-2/#28 All photos are used in the interest of learning about accident prevention as well as preventing further damage to the Ts in the future. )
1. Recommendation: Unless your car has an auxiliary transmission that allows you to put the car in “true neutral” insist that the car be towed with all the wheels off the ground to prevent the towing from damaging the transmission.
1.a. It looks like the T was probably towed away with the front wheels off the ground and the rear wheels supporting the car. I don’t know if the car had an auxiliary transmission that allowed it to have a “true neutral” or not. If it did – and it is put in neutral, then towing with the car on the rear wheels can be done without damaging the transmission. I don’t know if the T was just towed to clear it from the road – that would have been ok. Or if they towed the T several miles at speed without a “true-neutral” which will normally cause transmission issues. (See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/454343.html?1403393230 for a short posting on why towing with the rear wheels on the ground is not a good idea. Includes a link for the "boggie wheels" that can be used to replace the Model T rear wheels for towing.)
1.b. Photos to support it was probably towed on the rear wheels:
1.c. It is also possible that a dolly was placed under the rear wheels before the car was towed away. I don’t have any information to confirm that one way or the other.
2. It appears the driver of the T was “legally right.” However, I drive a VW bug as my daily driver and I use the approach of yield to anyone and do my best to get out of the way rather than get hit. In this case, there may or may not have been some things the T owner could have done (and possibly did) or could do in the future.
2.a. Initially I did not see the rear view mirror on the T. But after posting I saw it on the first photo that was posted. How much did the folded touring top block the view of the car behind him with the mirror that only comes out a little ways?
2.b. I don’t see any turn signals or brake lights on the T. They may be there and I missed them. While they are not original and they are not required by law in many locations (in Germany they were when I registered my 1931 Ford for regular driving) they can be a big help. We want to be seen when we are turning and stopping. And for so many drivers they literally do not know what hand signals mean – look at that guy in the old car – why is he waving?
2.c. With a touring car – the top can easily hide a hand signal depending on where the driver behind you is located and how high they are in relationship with the top. That is one place a runabout had a big advantage.
2.d. While possibly illegal, I personally still like the recommendation I once read on the forum back in 2003 or so. From memory, I believe the reader commented that even in their modern pickup truck if they were turning left and there was no traffic coming, they moved over to the left lane. That sort eliminates someone mistakenly passing you on the left while you are trying to turn. Do any of you do that and if so – which state and does it work well or “dumb idea.”
3. While it is sad that too many people will risk their lives and the lives of others to save possibly a few seconds – it is a reality. And it is in our best interest to drive in both our modern cars and our Ts so the other driver learns from coming in contact with someone else rather than us. By the way, if you have ever been late to catch a flight at the airport etc. – you may have been like me – temporarily one of those “idiots.” Since then I have added a lot more buffer between the time I leave the house and the time I need to be at the airport.
Again I’m very thankful no one was fatally injured and we wish all the individuals a full recovery.
Hap l9l5 cut off
(Message edited by Hap_tucker on May 21, 2015)
I wish the articled clarified if the Model T was making a left hand turn (it sounds like it was).
I'd also like to know if the driver of the Model T signaled his turn with his arm.
I've had drivers pass me on the left when I am attempting to make a left hand turn in my Model T. My arm is my turn signal.
Also, I would like to know if the driver of the SUV was on his/her cell phone - talking or texting.
Looks like the Kia got the worst of it.
If you find the intersection on Google maps and take a look at the Street View, then along with the pictures above it appears that the SUV was trying to pass on the left when the T was slowing to turn left at the intersection.
Regardless of whether the T signaled or not, you never pass on the left at an intersection. Sounds like the SUVs fault.
When turning left on unoccupied country roads, as a courtesy, drivers will often drift into the oncoming lane to slow down and turn, allowing traffic behind them to continue straight without getting slowed down by the turning vehicle. But if you look at this particular intersection, you'll see an old stone building (its the one with the wood shake roof in the picture at the top) that is placed very close to the roads at the intersection. That would have prevented the T driver from knowing if a car was at the intersection waiting to turn right, hiding behind the building. Thus drifting into the oncoming lane to slow down and turn would have been a bad idea in this case.
151 W Doe Run Rd Kennett Square, PA 19348
To see the intersection.
I always worry when I slow to make a left in one of our T's that some knuckle dragger will try to pass on the left at the same time.
That accessory front bumper is a hard item to find. Glad to see it didn't get mangled.
Clearly looks like the SUV got the worst of it...here's hoping that no one was injured. Auto technology has certainly come a long way since the day when a 15 mph or less auto accident could mean the end of you...little different and maybe worse for these early cars today. Us old car guys and gals tend to be sensitive to early vehicles on the road where unconcerned others give the adverse potential little thought. This owner had the good sense to install a rear view mirror...why any early car owner would take the road without a mirror, brake light, safety glass and accessory brakes, is beyond me. I know those who do not, and this leaves me seriously concerned for them and others who may be recklessly put at risk.
I think youze guys are missing the point. The KIA driver was
late for a nail appointment after picking up her kids at school.
Obviously, this makes it the fault of the T driver. Hello ?
Type error, meant to say "hoping no one was critically injured".
Here is what I have observed when making a left turn onto our gravel road. The car behind me sees me slow down and when I put out my arm to signal for a left turn, he thinks I am waving him to pass me.
It's very important when making a left turn to observe the traffic behind and if anyone tries to pass, let them go by before making the turn.
Usually, if I don't see anyone coming toward me from the opposite direction, I will actually cross the center line just before I make the left turn. That way anyone behind will not pass on the left. Of course the same caution applies, be sure no one is trying to pass before pulling into the lane.
Another possible help would be turn signals. For the purist, they could even be clip on signals which could be removed for car shows.
This is the corner of Doe Run Road with Mill Road on the left.
Do you see anything of significance?
Yeah...It's called a DOUBLE YELLOW LINE....
All together everyone. It's a NO passing Zone.
I hope they nail the driver of the SUV......
Further back up the road.
In case your wondering this is the drive way on the right!
Not only a double yellow but a blind corner and yellow signs warning of at ditch.
The SUV driver had to be an idiot to pass at there.
Another case of DWI--Driving While Idiot. The road to our house is a left turn on a straight way following some curvy road, so folks want to speed up there. Fortunately good visibility so I do use the "pull into the oncoming lane before turning" move in any car I am driving at the time--I'm also scrutinizing my rear-view mirror for any idiots behind me. I don't like the fact that I have to make a left turn to get home, but that's the way it is. And yes, there's a double-yellow line here too!
Too many young folks today think their life is more important than anyone else's, and you'd better not be in their way!
Fred, think I'd add to your sign, "WARNING--NO BRAKES".
First and foremost, I hope nobody was badly hurt.
I've noticed as of recent years that among folk who drive very large pickup trucks and SUVs, there is a noticeably large percentage who will run right up to the tail of whichever car they're following in an effort to discourage that leading car from slowing down for a right turn. _On many occasions, I've had to take a right turn or entry to a parking lot much too fast to avoid getting rear-ended by some hat-backwards aggressor in one of the aforementioned, large-tire vehicles. _Such idiots will then make a point of passing within a whisker of my left flank, to the accompaniment of engine roar, and frequently, the mindless, bone-rattling, thump-thump-thump of sub-woofers.
I wasn't there and I don't know what actually happened in this case, but it is incumbent on the driver who is passing to make sure he/she does so safely. _It is that person's responsibility.
Though we horseless carriage drivers have as much right as any other taxpayer to use public roads, our Brass-Era vehicles aren't even as safe as a motorcycle (which can stop short, accelerate hard and maneuver like a jackrabbit to get out of trouble), so for the sake of preserving our own skins, we need to be proactive and equip our cars for the type of traffic into which we venture. _In some bucolic locales like the Amish country of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, where tourist and local drivers expect to encounter ancient, black-colored vehicles that move at a glacial pace, you don't really need anything special in the way of safety equipment, but in my neck of the woods, where the New York Minute was invented, working brake-lights, turn signals and some kind of slow-moving vehicle sign go a long way toward increasing safety.
You can't fix stupid! We have to be diligent because they are everywhere!
I live in the area where this happened and have made that turn many times. Based on the photos it does look like it happened as the T driver described. 82 is a main road between Kennett and Coatesville and as people leave the slow speed limit village of Unionville right where this happened, they tromp it to try and make up time.
Two times the last couple of years I have had the same thing happen when turning left into my shop. Hand signal or not, the passing driver is just an idiot to make such a cavalier maneuver. If someone is slowing down with an intersection or driveway approaching, it should be taken for granted the person in front of them is about to do something. At least for once the guilty party took the licks.
And then there is the mindless driver cruising along with their arm out the window feeling the breeze. Often wondered if they realize they are signaling for a left turn. Are they? Or not?
1 detail I don't see mentioned. Did the T driver give a hand signal for a left turn? I don't think they teach hand signals in drivers ed anymore. And that is leaving a lot of old car drivers vulnerable.
I about got plastered by a f250 diesel that thought I was motioning him around me and thank God I always look 2 or 3 more times before turning into my driveway.
Radiator appears to be leaking.
People these days have no idea how to drive. Even in a modern car if you signal to turn they will try to pass you on the side you are turning toward. As if following the car in front closer will save any time. It won't. And if people think they're time is so precious why don't they do something useful with it?
Some people suggest taking the warning excessive labels off of things and let stupid cure itself but no company has done so yet...
It probably only helps slightly, but when I signal a left turn, I don't just stick out my hand, I clearly point to the direction I am turning. At least it doesn't resemble a wave or a signal to pass.
I point too, but I agree that for some oblivious clods it's pointless.
Another T-era idea: Eugenics
I don't point, I'm afraid they might look at where I'm pointing, (possible yard sale) and run into the back of me.
I was on that tour. Didn't see the accident, but I talked to the T owner. After hitting the T, the Kia hit a culvert and flipped upside down. It was supported by the rear on the culvert and by the hood on the ground beyond the ditch; the roof was suspended over the ditch and had no impact. All the Kia's airbags deployed. When the T driver and his passenger got over to the Kia, its occupants were already crawling out of the inverted car. They seemed uninjured; the T driver thought they were hospitalized as a precaution. And yes, the Kia driver was ticketed.
As T accidents go, this one ended up pretty well - the T is fixable, and the people don't need to be fixed.
Thank you Gilbert for the added facts. I have been out of town and late to this discussion. I always hurt to see these things happen, but am very pleased it was not so much worse. Society has gone a long ways down a very bad path with not teaching personal responsibilities and following good rules for good reasons. I am afraid it will take decades to turn back around again.
I have had many people illegally pass me when I begin making perfectly legal left turns. Both in modern cars and antiques. The only reason I have never been hit by one (so far) is that a I pay close attention.
As I usually close,
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
(Message edited by wayne sheldon on May 22, 2015)
I have been hit twice in my dump truck while hand signaling for a left turn. Once by a bicycle, once by a Honda driven by a guy old enough to know what a hand signal is. They think you are motioning them to pass around you. Now, I am installing brake lights and turn signals on all my antique vehicles.
Why is it people think they have to pass an old car? When I am driving my Saturn at the same speed as a model T, they don't do it. People just seem to think old cars are impeding traffic no matter how fast they are moving.
Glad everyone in this wreck was uninjured. This has been one of my biggest concerns as a T owner. Idiots passing on the left, trying to get around the "old car", no matter how fast i am traveling. Living in a rather small town, but not really "rural" like some of our lucky friends on this forum enjoy, i installed brake lights and blinkers. I hated to install them, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet, because I'm sure nobody in my town knows what hand signals even are. I also check the rear-view like a hawk, and ride both my left tires on the yellow line a mile before i intend to turn left.
i can do twice the speed limit in my T and people will still try to pass me, Why? They don't if i was in a lowered honda with added R.I.C.E. Some internet quotes say you can't fix stupid but i say it'll fix itself if you remove the warning labels.
I had an experience like this in my Model A Tudor once. I was making a left to an adjoining road giving a hand signal when a Ford truck just missed my hand as I retracted it to make the turn. He just missed me by inches and slid through the intersection into a 15 foot deep ditch along the adjoining road. When I stopped to ask if he was OK as he crawled out of his truck, he indicated he was and that I should just go on since he didn't actually hit me and he would take care of it. The truck belonged to a local sign business and he didn't want to admit he was passing on a double and wrecked. I guess he was very glad he missed me. Scared the bejesus out of me and I was very happy to just get out of there unscathed.
Is the car owner a poster here? I would like to hear what he has to say just out of curiosity.
But the bottom line is, people nowadays are in to much of a hurry, and don't understand these old automobiles and the old school rules of the road.
At 30 mph it takes 2 minutes to cover a mile so do people think you are going to turn or a road hog?? Bud in Wheeler,Mi
Some people have been in a hurry from as far back in time as you wish to go, faster horses, faster cars, passing where they shouldn't. It's not a new thing, just more of them to do it.