I found this today, this car is for sale listed close to me, is it correct at 14 - 15?
Engine Number; C12528,
Casting Number 1-1514.
Been off road since the 50's, stored under cover last 30 yrs but is a runner...
Note the handle bars are on the correct side!
Looks to be a Canadian '15/'16 (maybe). The front fenders and therefore side-aprons are later, the rear fenders appear to be '15/'16 (I think I see the '15 type rivets).
If I read Bruce's book correctly, the engine number appears to be a moderately early 1914. But the car is clearly not that early (engine was probably changed at some time). I would need a lot more details to pin it down any closer.
Looks like a great car! Are you considering????
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
I agree with Wayne. The rear end housings and tail light look '14 also. Perhaps the chassis is '14 along with the engine. Fork mounted headlights would be early '15. Looks like a fun car.
Just found it today Wayne but it has the worms turning lol, makes a change for working out shipping costs, 4 hrs return trip from here and thats it. I'm not a fan of buying a car then spending a heap I usually let the previous buyer pour it in. Here is a couple more pics.
Looks like a 14 coil box & earlier hogshead, is that a speedometer mounted above the mounting flange of the column or light switch? Can't tell my eyes are not as good as they use to be, for a moment because of the shadows I thought the rear axle was a clamshell but the zoom feature showed it wasn't. All in all what a really nice vehicle. I'd wash it,service it, rebuild the rearend then drive it. Hope you get it.
Wayne isn't that a slight swell on the end of the splash apron? That would be correct but you are right on the front fenders but I don't know much about the Canadian build specs
Few more pics
Another diff shot
I'd buy it in a heartbeat if it were near me and offered at a reasonable price.
That is a nice one. Even with the handlebars where they are! I wouldn't change a thing. Love the fork mounted head lights and coil box. Probably built when 1914 style were still being assembled. The aprons do appear to have the proper flare.
I like the front fenders too. They are probably a tad later but the rest of it including the tail light are all about the same time frame. Please do not tell us you didn't let it follow you home.
Ken in Texas
I'd be seriously interested if it was close to me, great looking car!
Like it. I woul find some patina matching 15 fenders, turn the horn right side up and fix mechanical issues only.
I am not an expert on the Canadian built cars either. I only know a little from what I read on this forum.
That car is a tough one. A fair amount of it is 1914. The body and rear fenders look right for 1915. That could all be correct as original being an early '15 Canadian. But the front fenders and side aprons would not be 1915. At least part if not all 1917 did have the bulge at the rear of the side aprons. The later side aprons are somewhat longer than the flat era fender aprons were. If the car had earlier aprons behind the later fenders, there would be a large gap between the apron and the fender. (Unless it was patched in?)
Fork mounted headlamps are also correct for much of 1915 Canadian production.
The car could have been a put together eighty years ago!? Regardless, I agree with other's statements. I would scrounge for patina matching '15 fenders, make the car mechanically good, and keep it as a preservation car. It looks fantastic as is.
A side note about the side aprons. If you (or anyone else) decides to keep it as a preservation early '15. Finding patina-matching fenders and aprons may not be easy. If you get good fenders, and cannot find the aprons, those can be cut down to fit the earlier fenders. I would hate to do it, because the '17 aprons with the bulge are also very rare. But I did it about 25 years ago when I restored my late '15 sedan. I did the research. I knew the '15 side aprons did have the bulge originally, but the reproduction ones did not have the bulge. I was determined to make my car as correct as I could. After two years of searching, asking, phone calls, etc. I still had not found a decent original set of side aprons. But I had gotten a pair of '17s in poor condition. I still hated to cut them down. But I consoled myself that they were bad enough that nobody else would seem to be interested in fixing them. So I straightened them and I welded them (One was torn almost in half) and I made patch panels for them, and cut them to fit the earlier fenders. And I was quite proud of how they looked on the car.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Great feedback guys, No i havent purchased it. I know its very hard without seeing it in person but just for interest what range in value (in $us) would you guys think is reasonable? It runs apparently ( I guess thats the motor only) and has clear title.
A little while ago a post on a car imported from the USA into New Zealand detailed some horrendous transport and taxes/duties getting the car into New Zealand. With the difference in your dollar and US$, you could pay top dollar for the car in NZ and still be way in front, plus having the opportunity to inspect the car personally.
Regarding the dating, it is certainly a 1915 body style, but I have seen an original Canadian tourer here in Australia with the same earlier diff assembly, forked electric headlights, under hood brass horn mounted the same way up, and it also still had the two piece steering box case. The front guards and splash panels have been identified as likely replacements. The only other thing I can see out of place is the NH carburetor, easilly replaced.
Given its proximity, its condition, and ease of acquisition, I would look no further.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
Thanks Alan, yes that was probably my post covering a very similar car (1913) that a friend imported from the US this year. Based on what I know it cost him verse the local auction at 12k this morning I thought I might be keen asked to seek this forum for its value as it sits but you wouldn't believe the progress over the last few hours.... someone has currently bid $38,500! And it hasn't reached the reserve price!
From what I have witnessed first hand for about the same amount you can buy, import and clear customs a restored same era T for not much more. Unbelievable!
Either there are two mad Kiwis, or one bidding on his own car. You are right, Unbelievable!!! Puts my line of reasoning way off beam.
Allan from down under.
Its amazing that some people don't research all the options these days. I agree Alan and I'm guessing there will be no other genuine bidders or mad kiwis prepared to join the chase. I just listed a Series One land-Rover & I hope my auction will attract a similar frenzy lol.
I always hesitate to to offer much of an opinion on dollar value of cars as I am not an appraiser. One like this is especially difficult because the interest in preservation cars has been rising for several years and they sometimes go for a lot more than I would expect. BUT $38,000 US IS NUTS! In the US a nice restored early '15 would have to be extremely nice to get even near $20,000. Preservation cars usually go for far less due to the realistic high cost of restoration and its desirability.
I do not think your high cost of importing would be anywhere near $15,000 US.
I do hope it gets a good home!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Well I guess if they are prepared to pay that it should ensure it will be at least saved and not modified. Hopefully gets a full restore.
Wow Kevin - I'm toying with the idea of selling my completely restored 13 Tourer (thanks to a large prolapsed disc cranking it)- I would take $38500 at a snap. Was it advised on Trade Me ?-Karl
A person would be a fool to do a full restore on that car, ESPECIALLY after paying that kind of money. You could buy a '15 runabout easily for 5 to 8 thousand $US that needed a full restoration and wouldn't cost more than 2 thousand $US more to do the restoration. The big value in that car is the idea that it has never been restored and is an original survivor. Hence the preservation class.
It is at least to me, counter-intuitive, however doing enough repair work to make a car safe and drive-able is considered by most to be acceptable as long as you do not repaint anything and at least attempt to keep the original paint and upholstery as original as possible. So even though you completely disassembled the engine/transmission, front end and rear end and rebuilt them internally, most people are still calling it an original survivor. I consider something worked on that much as a partially restored mostly original. A truly original has never been apart. My opinion.
Over the past fifty years, way too many nice original cars were restored by people that thought they were doing a good thing to restore any car. For that reason, there are not many really good true original cars left. Sometimes, today, they sell cheap. Sometimes they go way high, hopefully to be properly preserved.
Just me, being opinionated again.
Good point Wayne.
Karl, yes it was, but its funny how things change. I decided in Feb I wanted a T and struck a purple patch of options. On my road trip I looked at one in Chch, one in Fielding and purchased the next one in Napier. I had 4 more to look at further north if I needed, all but 2 were via the net. Since then there have been hardly any for sale.
Reality is you'd be struggling to get anywhere near this price for yours but you never know until you list it, possibly due to the point Wayne has stated.
My 27 is hard to crank but I attempt to every start, when I give up it starts 1st go on the button...urrr (vapouriser curse). My friends 1913 that's a fresh USA import I think is even harder to turn over? When cold its only possible after lifting the rear end. If your motors in good health like both ours I can understand how you hurt yourself. Next time I'm up your way I would love to view.
Either change your oil or adjust your clutch,or both!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bud.
Kevin I'm not sure what its worth to be quite honest There was a 1914 listed recently for $40,000 which disappeared but may not have sold. The simplest thing for me to do is to convert to electric start! Karl
That sounds a better option and that way it will still be there if I call by.
Kenneth my oil is fresh, please explain how I check the setting and how to adjust the clutch?
Kevin, Bud thinks your oil may be too thick, thus the drag when you try to start. Either that or maybe a misadjusted clutch. There can be other reasons too, but they're the most common. Even with 10W-30 oil and a perfectly adjusted clutch there is some drag when it's cold - it's the nature of the beast. When T's were used all year around in cold areas, many had to lift up one rear wheel to be able to start in below zero temperatures.
For neutral adjustments see this thread (among others): http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/309819.html?1346804649
Thanks Roger I will have a look tomorrow as its freezing out tonight, light snow on the ground this morning.
i'm using new 10w 30 and I notice the car creeps when cranking from cold more than it did 300 miles ago, i have the Handbrake on and a block under front wheel just in case it starts. After 2 or 3 cranks its easier to turn and doesn't creep the same.
You could try 5w-40 since it's so cold where you live. Another trick is to leave the hand brake forward when the car is parked over night on level ground in the garage - then the oil between the clutch plates will be squeezed out when you pull the lever back for starting.
Roger, Isn't it the other way round?
When you push the lever forward the car is in top gear and the oil is squeezed out, when you apply the handbrake the clutch plates separate and little oil is there to cause them to stick together.
I always park it up with the brake lever all the way forward. Were just getting into winter but its very hot here in the summer, I guess I could change the oil according to the season but its no biggie, First two or three cranks are slow and stiff but after that its normal. I think an adjustment might be helpful.
Maybe I wrote a little unclear - english isn't my first language, you're already doing it right so the clutch is probably as free as it gets when cold..
Thanks Roger, hadn't had time to check settings yet. minus 8.5 c this morning...no hurry!
The above T didn't reach the reserve price, the top bidder was the 38.5k and now they have offered the car for 40k.
Adjusted the 1st gear linkages as per link above, didn't notice any difference as far as cold start crank stiffness but when driving neutral is a lot easier to find using the left pedal. I'll see how it goes over time.
Interesting rear fender irons too.
The Brassy was relisted today with a buy now of $38,500, will be interesting to see if the very motivated bidder that went to $38,500 the first time bids again.
Your "Brassy" sale parallels one which was mentioned a couple of weeks ago here under the heading "Craigs list Right Hand Drive"
last entry May 21st at 5:38pm on the forum.
It went for sale on ebay supposedly sold for $29,000 plus then was relisted and second time no bids. Seems that some of these dealer/sellers are trying to drive up prices on their Model T's by putting on false bids, as both these cars are way overpriced.
The first time I couldn't believe someone bid to $38,500 but also that the buyer wanted more! After the auction it said the reserve was $45k, how greedy can you be?
If that bidder doesn't appear this time its possibly what your suggesting.
I watched that red Aussie one also, weird.
Sounds to me like the seller is just trying to get a feel for how much he can get for the car when he gets really serious about selling it. Pretty easy to do,.....just set an impossibly high reserve and watch to see how high the bids go, right? Looks to me like that's what he did....??? Also, at the same time, it could be a way to convince his wife that he really is going to sell the car.
What Peter K says is my thought also.
With apologies to a few dealers I know that happen to be good people, I generally don't like collector car dealers. Making and sticking to statements that clearly ARE NOT true to anyone that knows much about these things is the first clue. (The red right hand drive car cannot be a really original 1919 because the frame and running board brackets were not manufactured until sometime later!) I really like the red car and have been following it for a couple months now. I think it is very sad that it appears to have been bought cheap off Craig's List by someone that only wanted it to flip for the maximum amount of money he can con out of the biggest fool he can find (if it quacks like a duck?).
I haven't made such an opinion yet about this brass runabout. But is that a quack I hear in the distance???
As I said before, preservation cars can be particularly difficult to appraise. You cannot just go out and get another one like it because there are not that many good ones left. Then again, finding the right buyer is not easy either.
I could easily see this runabout selling for $20K US. If the right person saw it and wanted it. I can just as easily see this car sitting for several years at about $10K US.
RIGHT NOW! I KNOW of a touring car in much better condition relisted on eBad yesterday for a "buy-it-now" price of $15K US. I KNOW of a '14 touring that can be had for $10K US in not much worse condition that could be a nice enough car for about the same amount of work you would likely put into this runabout to make it nice original, yet really drivable and safe. These are cars that they are competing with for buyers.
There are a lot of fools with more money than brain. Finding the right one at the right time with money may not be easy. I have seen cars like these hit ridiculous bids before, only to languish not selling for years after. Shill bidding hurts every mostly honest person. And a lot of collector car dealers do it.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Wayne well put & I agree. I'm looking for one or better still two of those people with no brains to bid on my series one Land-Rover so I can hunt for another T.
You could buy my T but i don't know about shipping... and i would probably want too much for it anyway.
You can email me Kep if you like?