What do I have?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: What do I have?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Long on Monday, May 25, 2015 - 07:17 pm:

Hi guys, and I hope I'm in the right place. I have reviewed other Model T forums, and the members here are clearly the most active, and helpful.
I have a 1914? Model T that I will be selling for a friend. In order to 'market it" the right way, I need to know exactly what I have here, so I can talk with the current owner about a sale price.
It does run, but starting is a bit difficult (no starter). It has only been run for once or twice per year for the last ten or so years. I have been told that they have hooked up a 6 volt battery to assist in the starting.
Can you review the photos and tell me what I have? Don't be afraid to be blunt, and tell me what's wrong. unlike the owner, I have no reservations that this is 'original". It has cosmetic flaws, that are not all pictured.
I'm curious as to what is not what it's supposed to be, and what the fair resell value of this should be in the North East.
Any help is appreciated!!



Here's about 40 pics:
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tidajo/library/Model%20T%20Out%20of%20container


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, May 25, 2015 - 07:39 pm:

From what I can see, it is a pretty complete and mostly correct '14 Touring Car. The engine appears to have been cast in late 1913, which would be correct for an early '14 car. The engine has been painted red, which was a popular thing to do in the 1950's. It probably was "restored" then. The engine has a later crankcase under it. The front fenders are the 1913 style, which would be correct for an early '14. The rear end is 1919 or later, as are the front axle, wishbone, and spring. Someone has added a 1915-17 headlight switch, but the headlights appear to be the original acetylene type. The car has demountable-rim wheels, which were a frequent update to the earlier cars after Ford came out with them in 1919.

All those modifications are ones which were common for Model T's over the past many years. All in all, it looks like a nice car to resurrect, and it wouldn't take much to make it correct, or it would be just as much fun to drive as it is.

I'll let others put a dollar value on it.

(Message edited by coupelet on May 25, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, May 25, 2015 - 07:46 pm:

p.s. -- The top would look better if the owner would take the little pins out of the ends of the front top bow, then move them up to the lugs higher up on the second bow. The position it's in now is for storing the folded top.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, May 25, 2015 - 07:49 pm:

This look like the same car that was posted on Fordbarn;
http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167262
then no one heard back and it was assumed the car had been sold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Monday, May 25, 2015 - 07:53 pm:

Dale,

This looks like a mostly correct older restoration of a 1914 to my eyes. Sure, there is some obvious wear and some minor damage but nothing that couldn't be fixed fairly readily. The front wheels are not correct for a '14. The front tires are the larger 30 x 3 1/2 and the rims are demountable. Correct for later cars but not a '14 which should have 30 x 3 tires on non-demountable rims on the front. The hoses are incorrect as is some of the wiring but these are trivial issues. Naturally, the red paint on the motor is improper. I would leave valuation to others but one additional thing that would help is the serial number of the motor to determine if it is a '14 block. You could check that out yourself by getting the serial number from above the water inlet on the side of the block and then checking the chart at http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm

Ford used a model year and '14's were a bit odd as the open cars ran from August of 13 to the end of December of 14 according to the encyclopedia on this site. Serial numbers for those dates range from 320616 to 656063.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale on Monday, May 25, 2015 - 08:00 pm:

I'm embarrassed.
I couldn't remember where I posted those when I was first asked to sell it.
I just spent an hour researching sites, and my (email) to find it. I wanted to go back there and give the updated pics. I gave up and posted here because it seemed more active.
I do not want to overpost, or take advantage of members helpfulness. Should I just go back there?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, May 25, 2015 - 08:52 pm:

No, not everyone that post here goes to Fordbarn. And yes this site is the most active. Nothing wrong with asking your questions on more then one site.
MarkG


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Mazza on Monday, May 25, 2015 - 09:05 pm:

The car is very appealing. Most of the parts that have been changed were done to make the car more useable. The only people who would shy away way want a perfect stock unchanged car. The rest will use the changes as a tool to work the price down. There are likely many in your area to help you out, simply ask here! Also it woulnt hurt to post on hcca facebook page as well as model t club facebook page once you have established your bottom line.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 05:08 pm:

Thanks for the help!
I'll get the engine number tonight and share.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 08:37 pm:

Looks to me like a very nice car. I'm not really that "up" on the brass era cars, however, I noticed that the rear cross member looks like a later frame due to the length of the cross member, but then I'm not really sure. Maybe somebody else knows. Again however a very nice car, but I'm sure not the one to estimate a value,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 08:44 pm:

Engine number 382471. The chart that Walt shared dates it to November 1913.
The owner believes this to be a '13. Can the difference be told? does it matter?
At the risk of sounding crass, it's now clear that this is not a 'special" car. I don't mean that these are not great vehicles. For lack of better wording I mean that this one is not a rare "edition". I'm treading lightly as the current owner is not a collector. This was a family car that's been around for 40 years, and he believed it's rare and museum piece. I'm just confirming what is obvious to most.It's a slow process to bring in reality.

With that being said, I need to determine realistic value. I have had some advice, but that came from people who are interested in buying. Very nice people, and may be accurate, but I am not treating the owner fairly without doing my due diligence. Local guys are a great option as recommended, but again, they may be potential buyers.

Please feel free to let me know here, PM me, or send an email. I'm not looking to price it to sit around. maybe you can share a high value, sell quick price, and a "hell, I'll drive there today and buy it" value.
Advice is greatly appreciated!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 09:00 pm:

1913 windshields fold forward and the doors are square and go clear down to the splash apron - 1914 windshield folds rearward and the doors have the usual curved shape at the bottoms that Ford continued with through 1925.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 11:17 pm:

Dale -- A Ford built in November of '13 would be a '14 model year car. The body and windshield are typical of the '14 model year. So it's an early '14 car with a few parts replaced with later ones over the years.

You say it runs but is difficult to start. That could mean anything from a dirty timer to an engine which needs a complete rebuild. Those two things vary in cost to correct them from about $50 to several thousand. It's very difficult to put a dollar value on the car without knowing its true condition. And we can't know that without being there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 12:43 am:

Oops! In my post above, I meant to say,.....the length of the REAR cross member,......looks like a later frame.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 05:33 am:

Harold, the change from a short rear crossmember with brackets as body mounts to a longer rear crossmember with the same locations for the rear body mounts was made in model year 1913, so the late 13->25 style of the rear crossmember on this 1914 style car seems correct.

Dale: Ebay gives a good market pricing of every car. I'm in no way any price expert, but I think it would go way higher than $10,000 but not higher than $20,000? Yes it's a wide estimate :-)
With a low enough starting bid and a not too high reserve it'll sell.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coco - Winchester Va. on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 06:45 am:

It appears to me that the top was installed with the front bow in the wrong location (pins on irons in wrong lug). There doesn't appear to be enough material for the front iron/bow to move.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 07:17 am:

Good looking and very typical 1914 touring. The front fenders are typical of the 1914 model year, with billed fenders appearing in fiscal 1915 (autumn of 1914 in terms of the calendar).

For the best source of original 1914 photos see here:

http://www.modelt.org/mtfcivb/showthread.php/1119-Th-1914-Model-T

You should take another set of pictures showing the top erected properly so that buyers can tell how it fits. It should look similar to this:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 10:17 am:

Great photo!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 08:07 pm:

Thanks for all the great info!!

Since it appears that asking for an opinion of value (thanks Roger!)makes people uncomfortable, can you tell me what importance the year (1914) makes?
As I look at other Model Ts for sale/sold, I'm not sure how to consider a 1912, 1923 etc. of similar condition to this '14.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 08:21 pm:

Ford built this same body style from August 1, 1913 until about January 31, 1915 (Highland Park) and until perhaps July 1915 at branch locations around the world. You won't ever find one of these cars described today as a "1915" Model T, yet there were probably more of them sold as 1915 models than there were as 1914 models.

Compare the 1914 Model T:



.....to the 1915 Model T at the beginning of FY 1915:


The car you have is fairly typical of 1914 model year. They are good reliable cars exactly as Ford built them originally. This was the last Model T Ford body style that had an exposed flat wooden firewall, at a time when the entire automotive industry had already abandoned exposed wooden firewalls a few years earlier. They are a great choice for a collector that wants a brass Model T that is relatively inexpensive to restore. I like mine a lot!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 03:35 am:

FWIIW. A fairly common standard "1914" (okay, could be a late-late-'13, or as Royce says (and HE IS RIGHT about this), an early to mid '15 technically). More 1914s were built than any year before, and almost as many as all years of model T prior to 1914 put together. The total actual numbers of 1914 style are not known, because the '14 style did start early (during late '13 model year) and continued late and overlapped well into the 1915 model year. Ford records do not accurately differentiate the early and late production 1914 "style" cars from the "proper" earlier and later production years.
"Proper" 1915 cars are probably more rare than so-called 1914s. Every model year from 1916 through 1926 built many more (some years, many times more) cars than 1914. They are the least rare of brass era model Ts, however, they are one of the more desirable years for "most hobbyists". By that, I mean that they have most of the look and feel of the earlier brass cars, without the weaknesses that the really earlier cars have. A lot of hobbyists like them for their earlier look and feel, plus a little more ease of care. All the earlier years are worth more than a '14 in equal conditions, due to rarity.

Recently, a few very nice 1914 touring cars have sold in the neighborhood of $25,000. IF (there is that huge "IF" again) a hobbyist that knew what he was doing, and could, and did, do most of the work himself, he would likely spend about $10,000 and thousands of hours of his time to make the car you are dealing with worth $25,000. If you were to have most of the work done, you likely could not turn "your" car into a $25K car for much under another another $25K to $35K. Based upon only that, your car is worthless. But the reality is, that a lot of hobbyists would love to have it just as it is. With just a little work, realistically, it could be a wonderful and fun car.

Bottom line (eventually). I am not an appraiser. But following these things for over 45 years and watching them closely the past few years, I think I have a pretty good idea what such things are going for. I know a couple people that had the money, and wanted something really nice. Their journeys were chronicled on this forum (don't ask me to find the threads, I am lousy at searches). I know a handful of people that had tight budgets, but wanted the best car they could get (a couple also covered on this forum). I know of a '14 needing more than yours does that eventually sold for under $7000 (it didn't even have an engine). And the buyer was not satisfied with it when he got it home. That car with a bunch of more parts added to it was later put up for sale for $10K (I don't know if it has sold since or not).
Based upon those people, and those cars. Easy sale bargain time for "your" car would be about $10K to $12K. Realistic, but you may have to work for it or wait until you can find the right person that can actually scrape up the money? $15K to $17K. Possible amount, but likely could take a couple years to find the fool with money to part with? $20K? No, well, maybe? I have seen way too much paid for cars before, but I have always believed it was a fool's errand to expect it.

Good luck! I hope the car gets a good home.
There are several things seriously wrong with it, but I wish I had the money.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


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