Frame Question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Frame Question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rand Ward on Monday, May 25, 2015 - 11:46 pm:

I measured the frame on my 26 Tudor from opposite corners and the measurement is off by 1/4 inch. 107 1/2 to 107 1/4 from the points I measured from. Is this a problem that needs fixing. The car appears to have never been in a accident. Thanks for your help. Rand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 12:18 am:

Try to shorten the long measurement by using a strong turn buckle. Maybe one of those chain load tie-downs, that truckers use, and a strong cable or chain would work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rand Ward on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 12:27 am:

How about a come-a-long maybe?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 08:29 am:

Rand -- A come-along probably will work, since it doesn't need much. You'll need to pull it past where it needs to be, because it will spring back a little.

Did you pull a string along the top rails of the frame? They usually have some sag where the crankcase ears mount. And don't forget to measure the width at the front crossmember.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rand Ward on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 09:07 am:

Thanks, I'll check it later today with a string and Do some more serious measuring and see what I get. Thanks again, Rand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 10:18 am:

Rand:

There is a dimensional drawing of the T frame on my web site in the library. Go to www.funprojects.com and look in the technical document library. There are 2 libraries there. One is instruction sheets for products but in the other library there are useful things of interest for T folks. Download the frame drawing and print it out. Mike W. mentioned checking the front cross member. They very commonly have sagged a bit and it is easy to fix it when the frame is bare. I refer to the 21-1/2 Center-to-Center width measurement between the radiator mounting stud holes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 10:19 am:

I don't think a 1/4" difference from opposite corners will make much difference in reality?
The important thing is how the axles align, and that's determined by the oil pan.

Check so the top surface of both frame members are straight - early 1926 frames often sag by the rear engine mounting ears since bodies were getting heavier while the chassis was about the same strength since 1909, so later in the model year the thickness of the frame was increased.

A sagged frame can cause all kinds of problems with hood and door fitting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 10:34 am:

Here's a frame drawing for 1926/27: http://www.wescottsauto.com/WebCatalog/Tech/FrameDiagram1926-27.pdf

John Regan's '09-'13 drawing is the same in some dimensions, but the body mounts differ and the rear crossmember is wider on the improved cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 10:34 am:

I doubt it was ever any better. Really, it's only off 1/8" per side. I would be happy with that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rand Ward on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 12:39 pm:

Thanks to all for your help, info, and additional web locations. I very much appreciate it. Rand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By justin cox on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 01:15 pm:

My early '26 touring has about 1/8" of sag in the frame near the rear engine mount. Is that going to cause me body to door fitment issues?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Clark-Deer Lodge, Tn on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 08:00 pm:

Wescotts has two different drawings of the T frame, and has many number that don't add up. I drew out my frame, in mastercam with it, and found I needed another source to finish it.

Pat


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rand Ward Payson, Ut. on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 08:14 pm:

Here is a photo of my car I am restoring when I purchased it. It is now broken down into parts. As you can see from the photo that it was not a rust bucket at all It was in pretty good shape overall. I have measured the frame from the drawings and suggestions from this post and I can't seem to find any appreciable sagging. Maybe 1/64th or 1/32 at them very most at the rear engine and transmission mount location. The frame is very square (off 1/4 inch)...not really bad but still off some. No sagging at the crossmembers. Is it worth pulling out the 1/4 inch. My guess is that the frame was that way right out of Henrys factory when it was manufactured. I'm afraid of screwing it up if I mess with it. What do you all think?

Also, the body in the inside rear under and behind the rear seat, was full of mouse nests, dirt and other foreign crap. Would it be advisable to pressure wash all that crap out and let it dry up real good before I put any rust inhibitor on it? Thanks for your help. Rand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rand Ward Payson, Ut. on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 08:14 pm:

Sorry, the photo was too large. I'll try and reduce it more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rand Ward Payson, Ut. on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 08:24 pm:

26 tudor as I purchased it Here's my car when I purchased it. Rand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 01:17 am:

The dimensions on my frame drawing are NOT measured dimensions from a frame. Every single dimension is taken from the actual Ford Frame drawing that I have on file and there is no difference for instance in the rear centers between the separate cast body brackets and the later longer rear cross member locations for the same centers. Those same exact locations will match the few body drawings that in fact survive. Small difference make a world of difference later so get your frame right to begin with or you will be paying for your "short cut" every time you try to fit something up. I see it as something like building a house and deciding the foundation really doesn't have to be exactly level. If not addressed the problems will multiply as you attempt to fit things later.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 04:14 am:

Mr Regan - my post wasn't intended as criticizing your excellent drawing: http://www.funprojects.com/pdf/FPIframe.pdf
I was just trying to make clear that it's not the correct drawing to look at when checking a 1926/27 frame since so many holes and body brackets are in different areas.

And the body mounting holes in the rear crossmember are indeed further apart on the 26/27 style frames than on the 1909-25 frames:
09-13 rear frame
26 27 rear frame

Rand Ward - if the sagging isn't any more, then I think it would risk causing more problems by trying to bending it back than just leaving it alone. Looks like a very nice survivor car :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 10:58 am:

Rand,

"Is it worth pulling out the 1/4 inch."

I'll say again: No.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rand Ward Payson, Ut. on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 11:46 am:

Thanks Jerry, I will leave the frame alone. What is your opinion on pressure washing out as much crap as I can in the rear inside body. Will the water cause more problems? It seems like it would be OK if i make sure it gets completely dry afterward. Thanks, Rand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rand Ward Payson, Ut. on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 11:49 am:

Cam someone tell me what I need to do to get the radiator cover ready to re-Nickel Plate? At least I'm guessing it's Nickel. Rand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 12:03 pm:

Rand, If you have your heart set on straightening a frame, I can ship you a 1924 coupe frame that must have been in an accident. The front of the engine pan is about three inches to one side of the frame mounting location. That needs straightening or replacement. I will go with the replacement since frames are not that hard to find.
I like that old look on the 2dr sedan. I think I would get it running and not try to change the looks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 01:15 pm:

I wouldn't want to spray water in there. Maybe it would be o.k. but I would rather use a vacuum cleaner and/or compressed air.

I would just take the radiator shell to the plater the way it is. Too often we think we're doing someone a favor, or we're gonna save some money, by doing preliminary work ourselves and only make it harder for the next guy and subsequently more expensive for us. At the very least, take it to a plater and ask what you might do to prep it for him.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 01:31 pm:

You might just polish it with Simichrome polish. It's excellent on nickle plating. It looks pretty decent in your car photo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rand Ward Payson, Ut. on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 03:56 pm:

I'll give the Simichrome Polish a go and see how it looks first. The problem I have right now with the body is it stinks to high heaven of mouse crap and piss. It stinks up my whole shop. I just want the smell to go away and the only way I figured to get rid of it is to pressure wash it all out and then make sure it gets it real dry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, May 28, 2015 - 03:02 pm:

In that case I suppose pressure washing might be o.k. Can you put a bit of bleach or ammonia, (but NOT both), in the water? Might help some.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, May 28, 2015 - 04:13 pm:

If you can borrow an ozone generator, put it in the car for a few days. You'll be amazed at what it can neutralize! I had a piano that was in a building fire, bought the generator (under a hundred dollars) and you can't smell any smoke now! I also wiped off all the surfaces with smoke eating sponges. Still have to clean it some more, I get soot stains on my hands when I handle the parts!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Thursday, May 28, 2015 - 08:23 pm:

If you could turn the body upside-down and pressure wash it, the water (and other stuff) would all run out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rand Ward Payson, Ut. on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 10:13 pm:

Once again, Thanks for your help and opinions. I very much need them and respect you thoughts.

I have been on a Motorcycle trip to Colo. and haven't been by a computer for 3 days. Rand


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