Straightened Pan and Pan Side Rail Gaskets - Issue

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Straightened Pan and Pan Side Rail Gaskets - Issue
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 12:28 pm:

Yesterday I installed my newly straightened pan on my 16T engine, without the pan side rail gaskets the 4th main goes on, with them on it will not. Do I need to take the pan back and have it tweaked or can I run without side rail gaskets and substitute with the “Right Stuff”?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 01:01 pm:

Philip -- I think I'm understanding what your problem is but not sure. Those hogshead-to-pan gaskets are a little bit longer than they need to be, extending into the 4th main opening. So you'll need to trim them to fit.

If that's not the problem, we'll need more info and maybe a picture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 01:05 pm:

Philip,

Are you determining this "fit"/"no-fit" situation with the all the pan bolts tight and the hog's head installed? I had a similar thing happen where I thought I didn't have good alignment, until I had everything tightened down and presto, everything lined up perfectly.

To directly answer your question however, yes you can skip the gasket and use sealant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 01:29 pm:

If the 4th main fits with no gasket in place between the hogs had and pan then adding gaskets will make the opening that it fits into larger by just a little bit.
What is your fitment issue?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 01:46 pm:

Philip - There is a proper way to install the pan. 1st install the two bolts in the front on either side of the crankshaft. 2nd install the 4th main and bolt to the pan with 2 bolts. 3rd. install the rest of the pan rail bolts. This should keep everything lined up with or without gaskets. 4th remove the two bolts holding the 4th main and install hogs head, then re-install 4th main. Everything should line up easily.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 02:06 pm:

Taken directly from the repair manual:

329 Position crankcase on cylinder block and run down the two crankcase cap screws through
cylinder front cover and into crank-case. Place gasket on universal ball cap, oil end of drive plate shaft and insert ball cap over end of shaft with
oil hole “B” towards the top. The two ball cap, cap screws are then entered into ball cap; and
run down into crankcase (See “A” Fig. 215). (The two cylinder front cover to crankcase cap
screws and the two ball cap, cap screws are entered first, to insure correct alignment when
assembling crankcase to cylinder block.) The remaining crankcase bolts are then inserted,
and lockwashers and nuts run down and tightened.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 03:24 pm:

Let me explain more.

I was test fitting pan, engine vertical, nose down. No hogshead, just pan.

With the side rail gaskets on and pan bolted on, 4th will not slide on.

With no side rail gaskets and pan bolted on,
4th will slide on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 04:00 pm:

The best way to install a pan is to have the block pan rails pointed up.

Put in all the block bolts, with gaskets, "DRY", if you are just checking for some reason.

Putting bolts in the ball cap does no good at all unless you have the pan nose pointed to the floor, so it doesn't hit you in the head before you get enough bolts in.

If the pan is straight, when the pan bolts are tightened in the block, it will pull straight every time.

If the pan is out of alignment, at what ever degree, it will pull that way EVERY time, to the same point of bend.

All the bolts in the pan rail will make it so, you can't change it.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 04:10 pm:

Put on all the engine gaskets including the front crankshaft seal and install the two front bolts on the crankcase. Do not tighten them a little at a time until all are tight. Slide in the rear 4th main and install the two bolts to the crankcase. Then install all the bolts around the block and tighten each a little at a time going around the block until each of them is tight. Then turn the engine over so that the transmission is open at the top and install the hogs head. The felt which goes in front should be trimmed to where it will fit snugly but not keep the hogs head from pulling all the way down. Put a good coating on both sides of the felt and install all gaskets with sealer. Then place the hogs head being sure the clutch fork is in the right groove. After tightening the hogs head all the way around (be careful of the front two bolts closest to the block). If they are tightened too much unevenly it can crack off the corner of the hogs head. So tighten each bolt a little at a time until both sides are tight with the those two bolts last. Now pull out the two bolts at the 4th main and install the engine into the car.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 05:24 pm:

What type of front crank seal are you using? I had the same issue using the original rope seal, until I fully tightened the pan. What was happening was the ends of the rope seal was holding the pan at a slight angle until it was fully tightened and the ends were crushed. At that point everything came together correctly again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 07:17 pm:

Right now I have no seal in the pan. I wanted to make sure before sealing/installing the pan that the 4th main would drop in. I used 2 bolts on each side, one at the bottom (each side) and one at the bolt hole before the hogshead (each side) Then snug them up not too tight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 08:17 pm:

What is strange is the gaskets should move the pan farther away from the engine block, giving more space from the 4th main and making it looser, unless something is tweaking it to an angle. any chance the front end of the gasket is caught on the corner of the pan where it meets the crankshaft?

Are you able to tell where on the 4th main it hangs up, meaning can you tell if it is from one side or from straight up against the bottom edge of the pan?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 08:39 pm:

Very simple. When the front of the pan is farther away from the block it will act like a teeter totter and push the back closer to the transmission shaft. Solution is to install the 4th main on the shaft first then put the pan on installing the bolts in the 4th main to crankcase. At this point the crankcase will be raised from the block. You then start bolting from the front. That way both front and rear of the crankcase will be in alignment with the crankshaft. Then tighten a little on each bolt from side to side until all are tight. This will also flatten the seal on the front.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Wednesday, May 27, 2015 - 09:16 pm:

The pan is not in Alignment, take it to some one that knows how to straighten pans.

Sounds like the pan is at least bowed.

You never have any problems with a straight pan.

I seen one guy trying to take down the pan bolt holes by taking a flat piece of iron and pounding on the pan rails, and also take out a bow in a pan.

All he done was bend the pan rails at an angle, and made the pan rails follow the flat of the jig, and never moved the pan at all, and when the pan rails were at an angle, the block which when tightened again, pulled every thing back the way it was before.

You can't take a bow out of a pan by doing anything to the pan rails.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Thursday, May 28, 2015 - 12:13 pm:

Thanks for all the comments. Won't be able to work on the engine until next week, so I'll see what I can come up with.


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