No Shims

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: No Shims
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Thursday, May 28, 2015 - 11:24 pm:

A friend brought a 1914 Touring by the other day. He thought he had a rod knock. I ;told him that its an easy fix we will just pull out a shim. Someone had poured new babbit in the mains and rods. However when I went to start pulling shims not a single shim was in the rods, even though they had just been babbited. I could also not see a single shim in the mains. The caps had self LOCKING nuts, which was good but when they tightened up the caps apparently they could not turn the crank so they backed all the nuts off!!!!
This 14 touring has perhaps the best cosmetics I have ever seen. I told him that the car was worth having Gene French pour new rods and maybe even new mains.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 12:02 am:

1914 Above:

14 touring


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 12:11 am:

If the babbitt is still good, then it sounds like resorting to old skool repairs are in order, remember, back in the day T's didn't have shims from factory on the rods, so go by the work shop service book and bring them back into spec and tell your friend it will then have several years on it before pulling the engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 12:16 am:

Dave, the guru of old engines we all used here in South Australia has passed on now. He never used shims in the motors he rebuilt. He stipulated that rod caps must be of at least 5/8" at the bolt holes, so that the caps could be closed to make later adjustments when needed. Heavily filed caps were consigned to the junk pile.

Backing off the bolts was not one of his recommendations though !!

When I asked him why he did not install shims he opined that it gave just another chance for surfaces to be mis-matched. Put in a shim and straight away there are 4 surfaces in the assembly. Multiple shims, multiple surfaces.

His protege has followed this dictum, and I am happy to go along with it.

Hope this re-assures you.

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 07:06 am:

I am surprised that you guys would recommend that. I would NEVER have a rod in any of my Ts that did not have shims. I would have the rods out the next day and over to Gene French. If a person is a once a month across town to an ice cream parlor then yes I suppose you will get by. However if you are a person that drives their T every day and also goes on some long trips than once a month or two then again I am surprised. Its your Ts do as you like, have fun and enjoy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 07:08 am:

I am surprised that you guys would recommend that. I would NEVER have a rod in any of my Ts that did not have shims. I would have the rods out the next day and over to Gene French. If a person is a once a month across town to an ice cream parlor then yes I suppose you will get by. However if you are a person that drives their T every day and also goes on some long trips than once a month or two then again I am surprised. Its your Ts do as you like, have fun and enjoy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 07:09 am:

Sorry for the double post.

picture


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 07:39 am:

LOL Dave! That's fantastic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 07:48 am:

Cool name for a car. I'm assuming the juice can on the end of the tailpipe is to keep critters out! Good idea.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 09:43 am:

Tim & Seth: That's not my car. I get called by lawyers or family to estimate the value of Ts to settle estates. This one was some where near Wray Colorado on the Kansas border. It was one that I thought about buying but it was not for sale. I got called on one a number of years Ago that had a complete TT fire truck that still had the pump and tanks intact.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 12:25 pm:

If I get this right, you said that the Mains were too tight. Why not put some shims in now to give the proper clearance and run it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 03:53 pm:

Simple, File the caps if they have not been over done in the past, add shims and go. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 07:33 pm:

Dave, if the bearings on a T need to be adjusted regularly, there is something amiss. My roadster buckboard and chocolate van have done tens of thousands of miles in long distance trips and extensive city driving over some 26 years. Neither had to have any of the bearings adjusted.

We did take up .0005" on the rods when I ran the van low on oil following a damaged sight glass, just because we could. It is a simple process to take these minor amount from the caps using wet-n -dry paper on a glass plate. There is no way we could make that fine an adjustment with shims.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 07:52 pm:

I have found that many cars are rebabbited with clearances of over 1-1/2 thousands from the start. As soon as the high spots start to wear the rods start knocking and shims have to be removed. I like to set them at 1 thousands and let them work into 1-1/2 thousands especially with a one piece pan as pulling shim there is not my idea of a good time. It may be tough to crank start for a while but not as tough as pulling the engine to take up on the rods. I have over 7,500 miles on my '10 and have not had to touch the rods. When all the shim is gone I have no problem filing the caps if the babbit is still good and I have done that many times, most recently on my '14 touring where all the shims were gone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 08:01 pm:

My 1925 coupe has over 100K miles since my Grandfather purchased it in 1948 and it NEVER had any shims. It runs many miles before ever needing any attention and that is with all the mountain running that we did in Virginia, West Virginia, and Maryland. On the rare occasion that one started to get noisy, we pulled the rod cap, sanded a little off, and re-set it with a piece of oiled up news paper to set the gap. It's totally old school, but that's how they did it back in the day. Suggesting that a freshly babbited engine be pulled simply for lack of shims is NOT recommended.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Friday, May 29, 2015 - 11:56 pm:

James Lyons I don't remember recommending anyone pull a freshly babbited engine. I am just saying what I would do. If the would be experts want to file a con rod its their car to do as the please but I know of several persons that do hundreds of rods that WILL NOT take a filed con rod. They are no longer ROUND and if you repour the rods the babbit will be very thin in upper and lower centers. If you are using oiled up newspaper for shims-good luck. Its your car to do as you please, I certainly will not critize you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 12:05 am:

Dave, I think you mis-understood James. I think he is using the piece of oiled newspaper as we would use Plastigage today. It is the indicator used to set the gap, not as a shim. You are right about the out of round with filed caps. That is why our fellow would not use heavily filed caps, consigning them to the junk bin. Otherwise there is plenty of babbit left in the rods when re-metaled.

Hope this helps.

allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 12:13 am:

Fred Miller: I did not say that the mains were too tight. And you are right if the mains were too tight a shim would take care of that. At this point I am sorry I posted about the motor. I honestly didn't think that any one would babbit a motor without installing shims. Live and learn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 12:39 am:

Also Dave, no one mentioned filing the rod, just caps when it comes time to adjust, I've had rods come through my shop that had solid .030" brass spacers, purpose would be no more than to replace what had been filed of the cap over the years. It's not a big deal to re-size a rod before pouring new babbitt and I make good use of the solid spacer as well using it when mounting the cap in the pouring mold, replace it with the modern laminated shim for the machining for a finished job. Like yourself, I still like to have shims.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 05:49 pm:

When all else fails read the instructions. Chapter five of the black book goes into detail about fitting rod bearings. Nary a mention of shims to be found. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 06:10 pm:

Dave says what he would do and he is okay with what another might do .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 01:06 pm:

We did take up .0005" on the rods when I ran the van low on oil following a damaged sight glass, just because we could. It is a simple process to take these minor amount from the caps using wet-n -dry paper on a glass plate. There is no way we could make that fine an adjustment with shims.

Allan from down under."END QUOTE"


Yes there is Allan, very simple.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 01:36 pm:

Allen.. You are correct. We cut a piece of news paper that is oiled and set on the bearing surface of the cap. We make sure that the newspaper is only about 2/3rd's the length of the bearing surface on the cap. If it fills the full hemisphere, you can get binding. It's all our family has ever done since the 40's and we haven't had any issues using this method.

It is also correct that we only sand the rod caps. A flat plate is used with some fine grit paper and we take off a little at a time until the crank locks up when the rod is tightened with the newspaper in place. That's when you know you're there. When you remove the newspaper, the engine should be free again.

If the engine is set up right, the rods need little attention over the years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 02:01 pm:

If the would be experts want to file a con rod in their car to do as the please but I know of several persons that do hundreds of rods that WILL NOT take a filed con rod. They are no longer ROUND and if you pour the rods the babbitt will be very thin in upper and lower centers. If you are using oiled up newspaper for shims-good luck. Its your car to do as you please, I certainly will not criticize you."END QUOTE"

Using rods with out shims, is not the brightest thing one can do.

There are a lot of rods turned to junk that way.

The caps, and even rods are not useable, and when you start changing caps to the rod, you are not helping set balance at all.

Some guys send in rods that have not been molested, in for rebuild, never send junk rods back to them. or any one else.

Some rod builders bore the rods, and caps out to make the babbitt even, for wall thickness, but that will stress a rod to where the babbitt can fracture, because the rod metal is thin enough to move, and can blow a rod. The cap will not take the pounding, then you take all that meat off.

Dave has bought hundreds of sets of rods from us over the years, guys, learn from him, its all Free.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 05:57 pm:

USA rods must be better machined than the Canadian ones if you can match a random cap to a rod and have a good fit, ours can have the hole off set as much as being against the rod bolt one side and away by 1/16" on the other side, boring of some sort at times isn't a choice if you want a centre bearing fit.


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