Regarding those band linings.......

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Regarding those band linings.......
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Andreasen on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 07:16 pm:

I've been researching the different types of band linings...Scandanavia, Kevlar, wood, etc. and their pros and cons.

I know this has probably been asked before, but has anyone researched substitutes such as Nylon or other materials? I've seen such discussions but no concrete answers. It seems to me that a TIGHTLY woven modern material of the correct size might be an economical way of relining transmission bands.

If no one has experimented, I'm thinking of running a few tests using some of the more commonly available "strap" materials. I would line an extra band with the chosen material and run it on a special drum spinning in my lathe while keeping it soaked with oil. Test parameters would be for grip, heat, smoke emitted and loss of surface area/depth after a predetermined amount of time. It should be possible to closely estimate the durability and at that point install them for a "road test".

I also found an interesting way of installing the Scandanavia linings during my search. At least one T owner cuts 1/2" off each lining, then folds it in half and cuts it. He then deliberately installs them with a space at the bottom of the bands, which allows them to pick up much more oil than they normally would, thus increasing their life. Pop rivets were used instead of the brass split rivets...something that wasn't available when I built my first engine years ago. Sounds pretty good....has anyone tried this method?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 07:29 pm:

George, all I can add is if he used pop rivets, I hope he drove out the steel head of the "nail" after he finished installing them.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Myers_____Pittsburgh, PA on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 07:45 pm:

Not 100% sure if this is relevant in this particular situation, but regarding nylon- in rigging, (lifting heavy equipment with a crane for example), you cannot connect a nylon sling directly to another. The pressure or weight placed onto the slings causes them to melt together and greatly increases their chances of failure. Nylon, in my opinion, would be a poor choice as friction and heat will cause them to fail.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Andreasen on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 08:24 pm:

I remember that the steel shank WAS removed after installation. Too bad they don't make a brass pop rivet!

Nylon wouldn't be my first choice either.....I only gave that as an example of typical strapping that's available. In any case, the "heat" test would reveal any such shortcomings very quickly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 08:41 pm:

Hemp webbing comes in all different widths, maybe something for your to try list.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 09:00 pm:

George.........I did my Kevlar linings the "Konke way" too >>> http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=331880&post=544350#POST544350


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 09:26 pm:

I use aluminum pop rivets on my wooden bands. I think the shank you are talking about is also aluminum. No matter, it is easy and necessary to push the little ball ends out. Never use steel rivets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Andreasen on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 09:41 pm:

Craig.....thanks for the link to the
"Konke" post. That's the method I found, but not the complete article so I immediately bookmarked it for future reference. If that method makes the ordinary Scandanvia linings last longer it may be the way to go.

I have a 1919 copy of Dyke's somewhere in my library and I'm going to see if I can find a reference to that method.

Frank.....hemp? Why not? Not sure of its durability but I'll add it to the list. Thank you!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 11:50 pm:

IMHO today's scandanavia linings are junk. The modern material of choice is Kevlar. If Kevlar gives you the hebe jebes then use wood.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 08:54 am:

I've had Kevlar linings for five years and so far, so good. _My understanding is that with these linings, it's important that they be adjusted correctly (so as not to slip) and that the driver not "ride the clutch." _Slippage is the enemy, but it's easy to learn not to "ride the clutch."

The advantage of Kevlar bands, of course, is that they last a very, very long time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 09:03 am:

What kind of oil will you use?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 09:44 am:

Check out this thread from 2010 where I installed Guinn wood bands using 9/64" dia. x 9/32 long, tubular brass rivets from McMaster-Carr #97451A651. I have had these bands on for 5 years and they are still going strong with no indication that they will need replacing anytime soon. I'll never use anything else.

www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/152825.html

Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By M G Hillhouse on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 12:42 pm:

FO WHAT IT'S WORTH, My father was a director of research for 20 years with Goodyear tire and then in charge of research and development at Raybestos Manhattan Friction Materials for 8 years before starting Texas Friction who was bought out by SCANPAC. In that almost 30 years and untold research most of which included 6 or more bench chemists the quest for a substitute for asbestos in friction lining's was the holy grail. There had to have been tens of thousands different materials tested and kevlar ended up being the most viable alternative. I was a sales engineer for Raybestos as well and keep up with industry news. Nothing else has been found yet that is better. All of this research and product development is proprietary information and everything is sealed and protected. Having said all of this Dad always used original Scandinavia lining's in his T. I asked him once why he didn't use one of his lining's. His simple answer was why? These are what Ford intended to be used. Its true that today's woven linings are not as tightly woven or of the same quality of cotton as original. The topic of wood vs kevlar vs cotton will never have a unanimous agreement. Each has it's own strength and weakness. BUT MY HUMBLE OPINION is why risk damage to your motor trying something that "MAY" work. Ingenuity is an inherent trait that we all have. But believe me everything under the sun has been tested from banana peels to pecan shell's, believe it or not. It's your car but why risk it? Malory


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 12:57 pm:

Now there's some really good information! Over the years, it seems to have boiled down to Kevlar, Wood, or original Scandinavia. And M.G. H.'s post above is proof positive by somebody that "KNOWS"! I love this forum,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Andreasen on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 04:54 pm:

I just got back to this post and was astonished to see all the replies! MG Hillhouse......your father's contribution and you bringing it to the forum just saved me a lot of (useless) experimentation.

All things considered, I'll probably stick with the Scandavian linings for now and just be happy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By M G Hillhouse on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 05:10 pm:

There's nothing wrong with improving the wheel but no reason to reinvent it. If you have a passion and drive you may invent something new but many times it's best to put your efforts into something else that is more productive, like driving and enjoying your car! My quote that I came up with is "experience is what you get when you don't get what your after". Malory


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 05:14 pm:

Oh, come on. I wanted to see the results of the experiment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 05:18 pm:

I have always been taught that to avoid damage to certain parts, always use a softer material than the part you want to preserve. For instance, always use brass or aluminum rivets to avoid damaging the steel drums of the transmission, or always use soft babbit as bearing material for the crankshaft, or, always use brass bushings to preserve steel shafts in the planetary transmission and in a non T application, always use a wooden spatula when cooking on Teflon.

Over the years, I have read many threads on this site saying that Kevlar is harder than steel and has been known to damage and crack the transmission drums. Also, that it does not absorb or hold oil as efficiently as other, more absorbent, less durable materials and has a tendency to get hot and over heat the drums, as a result.

Applying the aforementioned softer material rule is what convinced me to avoid the ultra durable Kevlar and use the softer Guinn's wood bands. I knows there are a lot of Kevlar fans out there who dispute what I have just said and would defend Kevlar to their last breath. To those, I simply say, to each his own. The durability of Kevlar has never been an issue, simply that its' durability, in some instances, can be seen as a liability.

Remember that, by design, transmission bands were engineered to wear out before damaging the drums. Not the other way around. Being durable and lasting longer than all other materials is not always a plus. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Sunday, May 31, 2015 - 09:16 pm:

I was talked into installing cotton wood linings several years ago. After the first adjustment (about 4-5 hundred miles) I haven't had to adjust again. I'm careful on the pedals but I think the wood band linings are far better than any fabric. Just my .02 again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, June 01, 2015 - 12:32 pm:

I am a fan of wood myself. I am just afraid of Kevlar. I know lots of folks use it, but I am still afraid of it. I just don't see the need. The only "Advantage" to them, that I know of, is that they last a long time. I'm careful to not slip my bands and find that wood lasts me a long time, and I don't have to worry about whether I'm overheating a drum while using them. To me, Kevlar is kind of a Catch 22. The only reason to use it, is so you can slip your bands and not wear them. And slipping the bands is what you really DON'T need to do with Kevlar. So if you don't slip your bands, why do you need something that won't wear when you DO slip them?

By all means, if you want Kevlar, please use it, but for me, I'll stick with wood. I'd be willing to try cotton if the Scandanavia's had a better reputation. But on the other hand, I don't use outside oil lines, so maybe I should stick with something that that doesn't create lint.


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