Pulling the engine from my 15 Touring.... This could get ugly.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Pulling the engine from my 15 Touring.... This could get ugly.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 07:31 am:

So it's time to fix the weak #3 cylinder and prevent my car from becoming a member of the 2-piece Crank Club..

So, the million dollar question is: Is there any other way to get the engine out... and then re-install it, WITHOUT raising the body? You can see in the pictures that the wood blocks in the lower cowling wrap around the front of the pan ears preventing the option of just removing the firewall. This is an original car and I don't really want to unbolt parts that have been together for 100 years.

I am considering pulling the hogs head off, then unbolting the engine from the pan to remove that, and then pulling the pan out by itself so I can turn it sideways. Re-installation into the car would take place the reverse order, however, it would require that the engine be fully assembled on the stand to set the 4th main, pin it, and then separate the pan, engine and hogs head so I can re-assemble everything inside the car using the compressed gaskets and a skim of RTV.

What say you?bodyblock2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Will Copeland - Melbourne Florida on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 07:49 am:

I always have to remove the firewall and steering shaft. Lots of room then.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 07:51 am:

James,

You need to remove the firewall.

On a '15 you need to remove the steering column first. Leave the coil box, speedometer, and wiring harnesses hooked up to the coil box, along with the timer.

To take the steering column out will require removing the spark lever from the bottom of the spark rod. You will have to file or grind off the rivet head and punch the rivet out with a 3/32" punch. Remove the pitman arm, leaving it attached to the drag link. The steering bracket stays attached to the frame. Unbolt the column from the dash and pull it out.

Engine pans stay bolted to the frame. Remove the crank case bolts that attach the pans to the engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 08:00 am:

James, I had a guy that did not want to do that either on his 14, he took a cutting torch and cut the pan supports off of his 14 pan! I asked him now how you going to put it back in? The look on his face was price less. Please do not try that one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 08:21 am:

Joe,
I have no plans of destroying my narrow-nose, half-teacup pan!

But look at my photo's I posted again... The wood that forms the inside of the cowl wraps around and captures the pan ears by an inch on each side. Those lower blocks hook into a face-plate that extends upward to the top, so even if I remove the firewall, the opening there is still 2 inches narrower than the width of the pan ears. I don't see it coming out. This is a VERY EARLY 15, with 1914 rear quarter panels. WHat I mean is the fender beads are straight for the contour of a 1914 rear panel. The body is a Hayes body. Clearly, the quarter panels having nothing to do with my problem, but since it is such an early example, I'm wondering if this body is a transition to the typical 15 body and the opening at the front is slightly different from the typical 15?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 08:40 am:

James,

What you are describing is the typical 1915 body, same as the one on my '15. This touring body was used from January 1915 until around June 1915 when the 1916 style bodies began to appear. The 1916 style body has the metal door under the front seat over the gas tank, and the exposed rivet just in front of the rear doors.

Even the 1916 bodies are exactly the same as far as the wood around the cowl area. Remove the firewall, then you have no issues. I would not jack the body off the frame. That is a lot more work, and it would likely result in mis - fitting doors or broken wood parts.

It took me about two hours to remove the firewall from my '15, start to finish. The sooner you start the sooner you will be done!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 09:07 am:

Royce... Can you take another picture, just like you posted, but with the floor boards removed? I'd love to see the details under there... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 09:25 am:

Looking at the various proposals, I think the method I used is the simplest.


I made this hook and added a bit of inner tube for a cushion.


I disconnected the steering column and laid it back on the seat. I didn't find any reason to disassemble it or take it all the way out. I removed the few bolts holding the body to the frame and lifted it.


I didn't have to lift it far. A couple of 2x4 blocks gave me all the space I needed. (Yes, I know that's the wrong dash shield. :-))


Sliding the engine/transmission forward and lifting it out was quite simple.

I should add that my car is a roadster, not a touring. I don't know if that makes a difference.


(Message edited by steve_jelf_parkerfield_ks on June 07, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 09:49 am:



James this is the only photo I have handy showing the '15 with its engine out. This was 2002, when I lived in Cincinnati area, the last time the engine was out. My Sony Mavica camera took really crappy pictures back then :-(

I suspect that when you take the pan off you will find the need to do far more than you expected. Do it right and it should be 25 years and 50,000 miles until it needs to be removed again.

I have thousands of pictures stored on various removable drives. The car is at my house in Dallas, too far away to take pictures of right now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 10:26 am:

I haven't has the pleasure of removing an engine yet, but I do have a question.

Is there any way the front end of the car could be raised (ay 3 or 4 ft.) and the engine dropped down?

I suspect the ears may be a problem but maybe tilting the engine to get one below the frame and slipping a little sideways ???

I'm probably missing something obvious, but I need someone more experienced to spot it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 11:04 am:

You think that is ugly, put a gas tank in an Early 11 touring car. :-) Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 11:31 am:

james,
I am nowhere near my car (on a trip) but I think if you take out the side frame bolts on the arms and the top bolts, you might be able to wrap some bailing wire around the arms, and over the top of the hogshead and pull the arms in just enough to clear the body They do have a bit of flex in them. Then you won't have to lift the body.
Anyone else think my idea will work???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 12:01 pm:

Here's a photo of a '16 that is getting a replacement engine. I removed the steering column & firewall only as the lower front body wood had been previously "notched" for an engine replacement many years ago. Unbolting the body is not a difficult task either.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 12:06 pm:

The above '16 has a notch in the cowl for the radiator radius rod which indicates it is a 1917 or later body.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 12:47 pm:

I recently helped a friend remove the engine from his 15 roadster. We ended up removing the body bolts and blocking up the body much like Steve Jeff did. It was not hard removing the body bolts or blocking up the body especially with two people. You need to make sure that any shims get back in place when bolting the body back in place.
Before lifting the body....we fought trying to slide the engine forward and was not able to do so.

Have also pulled the engine on a 15 touring and did not need to lift the body on that car. Only removed the firewall and brackets in order to slide the engine forward for removal.

The firewall lower bracket bolts can be a pain especially if a starter was added. I use a combination long wrench with open end and socket swivel to hold the bolt/nut under the frame rail. Use some sealant or masking tape to keep the nut/bolt from falling out of the socket during installation.
Have see some make a double nut or bolt plate with a long welded on rod for holding to make life easier.
I know.....it's not stock, but well hidden inside the frame rail.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 03:47 pm:

James, Understanding your not wanting to remove any bolts that do not need removed. I think Steve Jelfs approach is the best way to go. You will need to remove the six body to frame bolts and unbolt the steering column at the frame. Then lift the front of the body enough to give room for the arms to slide under the firewall.I do not think you will have to unbolt the column from the firewall. You may have to, but I think the body will shift sideways enough for the steering column to clear the frame. Once you have the body raised enough for the arms to slide under the front of the body, you can twist and turn the engine enough to clear the steering column. I have removed later engines (with starter and hogs heads still attached) without removing the steering column. In my opinion taking the engine apart to remove it, and then re-assemble it in the frame is not an option. I just do not feel like it can go back together with good alignment. The only way to properly install the pan/hogshead and fourth main is on a engine stand with the engine stood upright with the hand crank end down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 07:16 pm:

Thanks to everyone for the information. Right now, I have the #3 piston out and can see no real obvious problem. So, it's decision time and for the most part, the decision is going to be based on how worried I am about a future crankshaft failure. The #3 cylinder is weak... not dead. So, I have to decide if I want to roll the dice on the crank, put the piston back in, and kick the can down the road a few more years. That's a tough call, and I'm going to stew on it for a few days before making a move one way or another.

All things considered, the Aerospace Engineer in me as me asking some questions regarding the crankshaft failures.. but that's for a new thread. Stay tuned


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 07:48 pm:

James, when I took my '15 engine out I cut notches down where the pan ears are at to get enough room to slide the engine up and out. Hated to do the surgery, but in the end, it was worth it. Now that it's all back together no one knows the difference. I do like the idea of having the head taken off ahead of time as in one of Steve's pics. Never tried that. Luckily, taking my '12 engine out was a piece of cake once I took that firewall off. It was just plain ol' "up up and away"!! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 08:08 pm:

We just replaced the motor in my 19 hack.

At first we figured that we needed to raise the body a bit to clear the ears but ended up raising the body 6 inches and removing the firewall. It would have been easier if we had removed the peddles but would still have had to raise the body to clear the ears.

We are currently installing AC brakes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 09:36 pm:

I may have missed it, but what do you mean by #3 is weak? Why not solve the problem (?) with #3 and just kinda shuffle the can for a while. If it's low compression, you may be able to lap, then adjust the valves and get it back to "strong". If it need rings and the piston fit is within tolerances, a "freshening" may be all that's needed. I assume you have checked the rod and main bearings (as that is where the impending doom would be most obvious...and already under way). Those things can be done with the engine in the frame.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Monday, June 08, 2015 - 01:24 am:

James,

I'm a know-nothing newbie who happens to own a '15 Touring like yours. _I recently disconnected the body (to get to the retro-fitted starter) and if I can do it, so can youóand by the way, it's easier to tilt the body back than it is to disconnect the wooden firewall from the body. _The most difficult part is getting at the front firewall-to-frame bolts, which necessitates moving the wooden hood shelves out of the way.

To do that, you need to remove the rear carriage bolt and rear hood hold-down clip on each side and then just swing the rear of the hood shelf out of the way. _That exposes the front firewall bracket-to-frame bolt on each side.




Removing the rear firewall bracket-to-frame bolts is straightforward as long as you donít have a retrofitted starter installed. _Just lift the floorboards and there they are. _If you do have a starter, the rear firewall bracket-to-frame nut & bolt on the driver-side will be a bit of a challenge to removeóunless you know the secret of how to remove and replace it. _Hereís the secret: If your car is bolted together like mine, the bolt will be pointing upward and you wonít be able to get at the boltís head with a wrench because the starter will block your access. _Youíll therefore need to take a dremel and saw a slot across the tip of the threaded end of the bolt so you can grab it with a screwdriver while you wrench the nut up and off. _

When it comes time to bolt the firewall brackets back down to the frame on a car equipped with a retro-fitted starter, this is the secret technique:

You wonít be able to replace the original driver-side rear firewall bracket-to frame bolt because access from beneath is blocked by the starter. _To get past that hurdle, buy the next longer size bolt and drill a cotter pin-type hole through the tip of the threaded end and another hole about an inch lower on the threaded shank (The two holes need to be drilled further apart than the height of the nut). _Pass the end of a 2-foot length of dental floss through the hole in the tip of the bolt and tie the floss into a foot-long loop. _Now, grab a wire coat hanger and clip out an 8-inch length of it to make a curved hook that you can use to poke down into the bolt hole in the frame so you can hook on the loop of dental floss and thereby pull the bolt up through the bolt hole. _Once the bolt is in place, push a nail through the lower hole in the bolt to keep it from dropping out of the hole in the frame. _The nail is also used to keep the bolt from turning while you screw on the nut. _Snip off the dental floss and spin on the nut. _As the nut spins down, youíll need to insert a nail into the upper hole in the bolt and remove the nail from the lower hole in the bolt. _Finish tightening the nut.

The body-to-frame nuts & bolts are much easier to deal with. _There are six of them. _Remove the front and middle pairs of body nuts & bolts. _Loosen the rear pair, but leave them in place because we only want to tilt the body backward, not remove it completely, from the frame.

The steering bracket has to be disconnected so the front of the body can tilt upward and you need to decide whether the steering column should be completely removed in order to take out the engine (Not having done that, I donít know). _Either way, youíll need to disconnect the spark and throttle rods from the steering column. _Pull the cotter pins from the spark control rod and throttle control rod at the steering column ends and free the control rods from the steering column. _Now, go behind the driver-side front wheel, under the fender and unscrew the horizontal bolt that holds in the steering bracket. _This releases the wooden block inside the bracket. _Now, remove the two vertical bolts that hold in the steering column bracket. _Very gently, bend the steering column as necessary to get the steering bracket up and over the frame so the steering column can be tilted up with the body. _Donít over-do the bending. _You need to decide whether to disconnect the pitman arm from the drag link to get the body to tilt up high enough to remove the engine.

If the radiator support rod on your car is the same as mine, it will be necessary to dismount the coil box to screw the support rod rearward enough to release it from the radiator. _Thatís fairly straightforward. _Remove the coils first, of course.

To actually tilt the body upward, insert a crowbar between the driver-side front body-to-frame hardpoints and lift the body high enough to slide in a block of wood. _Repeat for the passenger-side. _Now, go back to the driver-side and use the crowbar to slide in a second layer of wood block. _Repeat for the passenger-side. _Well, now you need to decide whether this method will lift the front of the body up far enough to remove the engine.





Look here for an easy way to re-install the hood hold-down clips:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/535861.html?1429779804

And look here for a cheap and easy way to drill cotter pin-type holes in bolts:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/319041.html?1351279141


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Monday, June 08, 2015 - 07:11 am:

Bob.. Thank you for the very detailed and thorough information!
John.. By "weak" I mean that cylinder 3 has far less compression than the other other cylinders. I am considering your option. I've done that before on my T's where I did a "poor-boy" overhaul while the engine is still in the car.

One of the reasons I am considering pulling the engine is so I can also check the crankshaft and drums for cracks. However, since I drive my cars slow (typically 25mph) I'm inclined to just fix cylinder #3 and keep on motoring. I'm still in the decision phase....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, June 08, 2015 - 07:13 am:

I am still scratching my head wondering how it could be easier to remove all the frame to body bolts instead of the 8 bolts that hold the firewall to the body? The entire process of removing the firewall and radiator is only two hours. Removing and installing the engine is made much easier with no firewall in the way. I can't imagine who would do the body raising business if they had ever seen this done the right way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, June 08, 2015 - 07:40 am:

Looking at James' first picture, it seems the wooden framing inside the cowl would stop the pan arms from being moved forward even with the firewall removed. Tim Wrenn wrote above about cutting notches in the wood (and that's probably what I would have done) but if you want to keep it untouched, lifting the body is probably the only way. Pulling the pan arms together like David Dewey suggests isn't something I would like to try - they're really stiff, and if you succeed you may upset the pan alignment?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Monday, June 08, 2015 - 08:01 am:

At the risk of being redundant (big word for 8 a.m.!!) I will ditto Royce just above here and Roger, It took fairly little effort moving the firewall up, I didn't remove it entirely, I held it up by a small piece of rope slung over the windshield and tied it off on the top bow bracket. The worst part was as I recall one of the carriage bolts was hard to get at but I got it. Yes, I hated like hell to do "surgery amputation" of some of the body frame wood but it was very small and totally un-noticeable. And, God forbid I ever have to pull that friggin' engine again, it's ready to go!! LOL.


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