EYE NO fuel & spark and it goes put put put

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: EYE NO fuel & spark and it goes put put put
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Tuesday, June 09, 2015 - 01:44 pm:

Translation - I know you need fuel and spark at the right time to make it go put put put put put and so on.

BUT I only get Put! :-(
maybe put put but no more!


Is it possible to put the rotor from a TW timer in 180 from where it belongs?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Tuesday, June 09, 2015 - 01:55 pm:

that was the short version here is the long one -
We just swapped the motor in the 19 and canít get it started.

My original 19 motor ran well but it was tired and I didnít want to hurt it so we put in a new- rebuilt one.

I saw the new motor run before I bought it.
It came with the starter, generator and carb but no timer.
So I installed a TW timer with a new wiring harness.
I carefully followed the directions and made sure that the firing order (1,2,4,3) was correct.
I also made sure that the hole for the spark rod on the timer cover was in the same position on both motors.

I switched from the Kingston carb that came with the new motor to my New Holly (NH) because I am comfortable with it.

I removed the starter and generator because the 19 did not come with them and I like to crank. (I am rethinking that last move!)

Now the stupid thing will not start!
It only fires on one or two cylinders once after being choked and cranked a lot, but does not run.
We have gas at the carb, and we checked and rechecked the wires to be sure the firing order is correct.

We tried different carb settings and even put the Kingston back on for a try without success Ė although the Kingston did not spew gas like the NH when choked.
We also tried advancing the spark a little while cranking - Left hand only! :-) without success

I use a well charged 12 volt battery when starting and can clearly hear the coils buzz so the switch and wires are not an issue.

I have one of these but canít figure out how to use it.




So this brings me to the questions Ė Is it possible to put the TW timer rotor in backwards?

What am I missing - besides brains?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, June 09, 2015 - 02:03 pm:

It is possible if the camshaft has been drilled all the way through. There are some cams like that. Otherwise it is impossible. It is, however, very easy to get the wiring on the timer in the wrong position which would cause the spark to come in the wrong order to one or more cylinders. If I were troubleshooting my car and it had been running before this happened, I would ask myself, "What have I or someone done since it last ran?" If the timer had been replaced, I would then check out the new timer and also the wiring at the timer. If the problem came on gradually without having been worked on, I would then check first the flow of fuel at the carburetor. If it flows from the valve at the bottom of the bowl, I would assume the carburetor is OK. You might try opening the mixture valve about 1/4 turn and see if it will run. If the gas does not does not flow at the bowl, go to the sediment bowl and see if the gas flows there. If it does, you have a clog in the fuel line. If it doesn't flow at the sediment bulb, you have either low gas in tank, or a clog in the outlet of the tank. A further check would be to see if it will start with a shot of starting fluid. If it does start but doesn't keep running, I would suspect clogged main jet in the carburetor. Next I would check the coils. It helps to have several T's when you do this. You first take the coils from a T which runs good and substitute them into your T. If it still doesn't run, suspects would be the timer, the wiring between timer and coil box, the battery to ignition switch, or if a non starter car, the wire between magneto, and switch. You can also place a battery in the circuit. (Do not connect battery to the magneto or in any way that would cause battery voltage to reach the magneto.) The battery is simply to see if the car will run on battery. If it does run on battery, but not on mag, you have a problem in the switch, or the wire between magneto and switch. If it runs good on borrowed coils, then put your coils into the other car from which you borrowed coils and see how it runs. If you have the same problem you had with your car, you need to rebuild or replace your coils. Another possible source of problem would be the contacts in the coil box not making good connection with your coils. Or the wood in the coil box could be conducting the spark to ground instead of to the spark plugs. If your car won't run on borrowed coils, you could also have bad spark plugs.

Only other thing I can think of would be very low compression. You should have 50-55 lbs compression with a standard Ford head.

I can't think of any other possible source of the problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, June 09, 2015 - 02:13 pm:

If it ran it's something you did. Not knockin' just sayin'. Pull the #1 plug. With the switch on batt slowly crank until the #1 wire is throwing a spark. Try to see where the #1 piston is position wise. Best to have someone else watching. It'll give you an idea on how far off your spark setting is.. You've got wires crossed or a timer incorrectly installed from the sound of what's already posted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, June 09, 2015 - 02:17 pm:

After reading your second post, I would suggest that you be sure the spark is after top dead center with the spark lever all the way retarded. that timing gauge is good on the original timer, but might not be correct for an after market timer. An easy way to check for this would to turn the ignition switch on battery and very slowly turn the crank with the spark lever all the way retarded, stop immediately when one of the coils begins to buzz. If it is hard to turn with crank, leave the car in high gear and roll slowly forward until the coil buzzes. It doesn't matter which coil buzzes for this test. A double check would be to remove the timing rod and with the crankshaft pin slightly lower on the left side, rotate the timer clockwise as viewed from the front until the spark just starts and adjust the rod to fit. The pin through the front of the crankshaft should be slightly lower on the left (drivers)side than on the right side. If so, your timing is correct. If not, bend the rod to make the spark come at the right time.

Also a newly rebuilt engine might not run when starting with a crank. Try pulling the car in high gear until it starts. Then run the engine until it warms up. Re torque the head bolts either hot with a cast iron head, or wait until it cools off if you have an aluminum head. You will also need to set the idle high for the first few miles until the rings seat. After you put a few miles on, the engine should start easily with the crank.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Tuesday, June 09, 2015 - 02:33 pm:

Fred,

Did you change intake manifolds as part of this exercise? If yes, whole different troubleshooting sequence!

OK, before you do anything else...

1- Make sure switch is off and key is out
2- Remove number 1 plug
3- Place thumb tight over the spark plug hole
4- Turn or better yet have someone turn the crank until it really wants to blow your thumb off the hole...stop
5- Remove thumb from hole and peek in the hole at an angle. Rotate the crank slower than slow...you will see the piston peak and just start down....stop
6- Set the spark lever up and tape it there
7- Remove the rod from the timer...
8- Leave the gas OFF...
9- Turn key to batt side and slowly rotate the timer until you JUST hear a buzz...stop...back it off until buzz stops..
10- Forget the fiber thingy...you now need to bend your rod until it FITS the centers of the spark lever clevis and the timer clevis without moving either...
11- Turn off key

You are now mechanically timed to the best place that you can be...you might be spot on electrically, you may be 180 degrees out..but we'll fix that next.

12 Gas still off...untape the spark advance..move it down a couple of clicks
13 #1 plug back in
14 Key on, batt side...
15 you should still be in a buzz zone..
16 you can't dally on this as arching coil on batt for a long time is a bad thing...
17 hold a screwdriver point on the head, lean it into #1 electrode top...if it arc's it isn't your timer thats holding you back. If the arch doesn't jump, go to #4...if it arches, you are 180 degrees out at the timer brush

There are other sequences to do this exact same thing, but this is the easiest for me...

Try it, check back in...

Oh, btw, do you buzz constantly as you crank? Thats something else entirely......

Fuel - Vacuum - Compreesion - Timed spark, the ONLY variables for 99.99999% of any starting issues...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Tuesday, June 09, 2015 - 02:34 pm:

sorry.Norman was typing same time as me........


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Tuesday, June 09, 2015 - 03:03 pm:

If it just sputters it sounds like mine when its flooded. KISS

Firing order is: 1-2-4-3. I didn't see that in all the words above.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Tuesday, June 09, 2015 - 04:46 pm:

We changed the exhaust manifold because the packnut threads were bad...
I am thinking I should get an intake - exhaust set from Langs

As usual both manifolds came loose and they were a bit tedious to put back on.


I am 99.9999997 % sure we have the 1-2-4-3 correct!


The motor was run on a test stand before I got it. It cranks a bit tight in comparison to the old motor but I figured that it was because to old one was very loose.

The coils do not buzz all the time. I can see different ones buzz as we turn the crank. They worked fine with the other motor and were rebuilt/tuned by Ron Patterson a few years ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Barrett - Anderson, IN on Tuesday, June 09, 2015 - 06:43 pm:

Here is my .02 cents worth:
1. Pull all 4 plugs, connect them to the plug wires and lay them on the head so they are grounded.
2. Turn the switch to the battery position.
3. Put your finger in the #1 plug hole and crank until you feel the compression. You should see a spark somewhere after TDC with the lever in the full up position.
4. Check each cylinder this way.

Did you use the TW tool to set the timer to 15 degrees ATDC?

You probably know you only need fuel, compression and spark to start an engine. Try starting fluid. Also it is possible the timing gear was not set correctly. The dots on both gears must match up. You would need to pull the timing gear cover to confirm.

I hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, June 09, 2015 - 10:06 pm:

With any four cycle engine, it is SO-O easy to get the timing 180 degrees off. It isn't enough to make sure that the number one cylinder is top dead center plus a few degrees. You MUST make sure it is top dead center plus a few degrees past COMPRESSION stroke. First you must determine which stroke the cylinder is on. I usually just remove number one spark plug and stick a finger into the hole and crank a few half turns. I can feel the intake (weak suck) followed by the compression (hard blow), then I know where I am.
You can also feel for which valve is open or moving.
Good luck!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Wednesday, June 10, 2015 - 08:17 am:

I've also seen a compression finding trick (on a T, no less!) where you twist up a paper towel and stick it in the plug hole. The compression stroke will be the one that spits it out. Handy if you're working alone and can't reach the plug hole to feel it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Wednesday, June 10, 2015 - 10:14 am:

Thanks for all the ideas -- It helps to get input from experts! :-)

Update-

Since the motor ran before I put it in the car I figure that the cam timing gear is correct so it has to be something I did with the timer or a carb problem

I ordered manifold and carb gaskets from Lang's.

I will replace the manifold gaskets first and use George's method of checking the timing.

Next I will pull the carb apart and make sure it is clean.

Keeping my fingers crossed! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Saturday, June 13, 2015 - 07:24 am:

Fred,

Are you back from China?

Any solution to your problem you can share with us?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Saturday, June 13, 2015 - 09:33 pm:

Hi Dave I am in the states.

Today we worked on the T and had some success.
We replaced the manifold gaskets and cleaned the carburetor.
Then we confirmed that the wires from the timer were correct and that we had the real top dead center. (Looking at the piston and observing the valves

After a few unsuccessful pulls on the crank by my son and a few by me we decided to pull it behind my son's car.

We pulled it about 3 feet and it started. WOOPIE

We quickly learned that the timing lever needed to be about half way down for it to start - not at the top. When we put it all the way up the motor stopped running.
We were even able the crank start it with the lever half way.
The further we advanced the timing the better it ran until we ran out of lever travel.

To shorten the story we learned that the new TW timer requires a completely different bend in the rod than the Dayco timer we had on the old motor. Even more bothersome the arm on the TW would run into the fan belt before it got to a decent advance, so we put the old Dayco on and things look good.

Between the problem and solution we even pulled the front cover to check the timing marks on the cam and crank gears.

Oh I almost forgot. Russ Whitney delivered the motor for my wife's Model A this morning so I have to get the T done quickly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Saturday, June 13, 2015 - 09:43 pm:

Thank you.

Changing one thing sometimes requires the change of another!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Sunday, June 14, 2015 - 08:06 pm:

LOL. I have learned the lesson that one change requires the change of another over and over and over.

Now we have a head gasket problem. We found that the torque was at it 25 ft pounds and the compression was leaking into the radiator causing overheating. We torqued everything to 45 Lbs and the overheating problem was solved but we are now loosing water to the outside thru the head gasket. My son thinks it is cool because we can take another part of the T apart.

The good news is that the new motor has power I never experienced with the old one. I even considered going to NH Dragway and competing in the NHRA nationals this weekend but the T would present an unfair advantage to the other competitors so I decided to stay at home and have a glass of wine.

Meanwhile I now need to call Lang's an order more parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Sunday, June 14, 2015 - 08:23 pm:

Fun, Fun, Fun....

Just a thought for you -
awhile back there were a few posts about adjusting the timing by looking at the crank pin. John (Pie Wagon) Regan wrote one method, there was another similar method. I tried that method on my non-starter '15 - great improvement, but not yet as good as Royce Sr. makes it look. Difficult to get the rod adjusted with channel locks and pliers - when I save enough dimes, I'm going to get a set of these:
https://www.modeltford.com/item/3534TL.aspx

Might you consider getting a set for your toolbox?


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration