Rewooded Wheels

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Rewooded Wheels
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 06:47 pm:

Just got my wheels back for my 1912 touring. I noticed that they are now doing something different to secure the fellow to the rim.

Instead of the original long rivits through the rim and the fellow, they are counter drilling a hole thru the rim and using Philipps screws. These screws are placed at an angle thru the rim into the fellow. They are still suing the long rivits for the covers over the fellow ends.

So I'm thinking that with the lateral side load placed on the wheel and fellow as the car is driven and turning, there is a good chance these screws may loosen up and possibly puncture the tube through the flap.

My question is: has anyone found a plyable coating to put on the inner rim other than duct tape?

I was thinking of using mobile home rubberized roof coating as it is smooth and designed to stay plyable in heat and will adhere to metal surfaces.

Any thoughts??????

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry LaPatka- East Tennessee on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 07:14 pm:

Using tool handle plastic dip which is now available in spray cans. The electrical is the same only small cans with brush applicators. Great handy stuff for all sorts of fix-it jobs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 07:21 pm:

Who made those wheels? I would send them back and demand that rivets be installed. The screws will work loose, resulting in failure.

I've used duct tape for years. Just changed out the rear tires on my '15, they were bald after 12 years and 20,000 miles. The duct tape was like new. I did not disturb it. Should last until next set of tires.

Old Goodyear 30 X 3 1/2:


New Universal ribbed 30X 3 1/2:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 07:53 pm:

The wheels were done through Mel's and I believe Stutzman does the actual work.

just sayin'

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 08:00 pm:

From the Model T Encyclopedia 1912 section online:

OCT 17 Ford Archives
T291B front wheel assembly. Specifed 3/16" rivets to be used to hold the rim to the felloe, replacing the #10 x 3/4" flat-head wood screws being used. Also specified that the hole for the inner tube valve stem be lined with 9/16" 25 ga. steel tubing to prevent chafing.

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc12.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 08:17 pm:

I agree with Royce on demanding rivets. And I too have been using duct tape for years with excellent results.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 08:25 pm:

bcg, you can make a rubber rim liner from the outside diameter of a 13" car tube. Just cut 2.5" strip around the tube. It is a snap fit in the rim and does not get dislodged when fitting tyres. I get mine from the wreckers, usually for nothing. A cheap alternative would be bicycle tubes of an appropriate size. I have not had to go this route as yet, so cannot advise on the size needed.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 08:31 pm:

I can't believe Stutzman rebuilt those wheels.

The pressure of the rim against the felloe in and of itself is what keeps the rim secure.

The rivets help keep the rim centered on the felloe but are not the primary reason why the rim stays on the felloe.

Hypothetically, you should be able to run the wheel without rivets.

Once the felloe becomes loose, then the rivets will eventually become loose and fail.

The old methods are tried and true.

I wouldn't accept those wheels even if the person who rebuilt them removed the screws and then installed rivets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 08:57 pm:

Who said Stutzman rebuilt them?? I would like to know who the rebuilder is,and it is the poster's responsibility to provide that info.lets not ruin a good persons name until we find who is to blame.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 09:07 pm:

Sorry,but first read didn't show who rebuilt them. He (Mel) would be getting them back if they were mine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 09:50 pm:

According to Mel, Stutzman does his wheel work.
Just passing on the information I have been given, don't shoot the messenger!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have looked at all 4 wheels quite carefully, here are the results,

LF wheel, only 2 of the 4 long rivits that hold the fellow plates on are long enough to go thru the rim and be peened over. The other 2 are short of the fellow by 3/16th's. The original rim holes for the rivits have been counter sunk and 1/2" phillips head screws are installed

RF Wheel, only 2 of the long rivits are peened over on the inside of the rim. The other 2 rivits on the fellow plate are short of the rim and not peened. The same countersunk 1/2" wood screws installed inplace of the original long peened rivits.

LR wheel, all 4 long rivits for the fellow plates are long enough and peened over , the 1/2" woodscrews are installed instead of the long rivits as original.

RR wheel, 2 long rivits peened over and 2 are short as the others and not peened, again 1/2" wood screws are installed in the original long rivet holes on the fellow.

I will say the wood work is exceptional and well fit. My concern is that there is not enough strength in 1/2" wood screws to hold the fellow in a turn while driving. I'm thinking the lateral strength is compromised without the long rivits installed and peened.

Not to sure I want to give them a 2nd chance kiinda gun shy now.

just sayin,

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 10:04 pm:

Something doesn't sound right. I would call Stutzman and hash it out with him before dumping on him on the web. He has done a few sets for me and all we exceptional. There must be more to it.

With respect to the screw issue, did you see my post above? They built 70,000 cars before they switched to riveted felloes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 10:15 pm:

Above I incorrectly misstated 70,000 -- should be 150,000.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 10:17 pm:

How long were the original screws? The ones used here were actually metric and just shy of 1/2"

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 10:21 pm:

The length of the original screws is cited in what I pasted above from the Encyclopedia.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 10:21 pm:

His contract was with Mel. Mel is the one to make it right. Who knows who Mel sub contracted the wheels to.

Stutzman's reputation is top notch. His name should have never been brought up. Mel is the guy who needs to fix this. It's not impossible that the woodwork was superb and someone else screwed it up after the fact.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 10:24 pm:

When I reworked my '16 wheels about a decade ago, I did countersink the holes in the rim so that I could peen the rivets flat on the rim side. Seems to be fine, so replacing those screws with rivets should work out OK. Walter, a '12 T is likely way beyond the early screw install!
Wonder if they have a new guy at the wheel shop?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 10:33 pm:

David, my citation is not matter of "likely". Both the Encyclopedia and MTFCI Judging Standards state screws were used in '12 and then switched to rivets in '13.

Separate of the workmanship issue, my guess would be if the o.p. specified he wanted wheels built for a '12, that's why they used screws rather than rivets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 10:38 pm:

There are some threads on the forum regarding the early wheels with screws. In addition to the information provided by researchers such as Bruce McCalley, some posters have also included descriptions of original examples on their own cars.

I browsed the threads. The joining plates of the early wheels are riveted, even though screws are used on the rest of the wheel.

If complete early wheels with screws were dropped off with the wheelwright and instructions were provided to rebuild them as per original, I would think that they would come back "like for like."

If only rims and hubs were dropped off, if you were a purist I would think that you would have to instruct the wheelwright to rebuild them with screws. Otherwise, I would think that rivets all around would be the default.

If rivets were pushed through the joining plate and into the felloe but they are not long enough to peen on the rim, then your wheels are just decorations.

Just thinking out loud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 11:17 pm:

Noah Stutzmann has done several sets of wheels for me. All have rivets. I have never dealt with Draper, why would anyone not go directly to Stutzmann?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Thursday, June 11, 2015 - 11:31 pm:

I have had 5 previous sets of wheels through Mel all with good results. I am not banging on anyone in particular but only to point out my concerns regarding screws and short rivits not peened, and the obvious lack of quality control.

I was originaly just going to coat the inside of the rim with a sealer and let it go at that. However based on my earlier post I'm not happy with the short unpeened rivits and 1/2" screws.

The responsibility ultimately rests on Mel's shoulders. He is the agent of record and manages the process from start to finish. So as I paid him directly my argument is with him. As he raised the wheel price by some $50 per wheel I would have expected better quality control and a better finished product.

Tomorrow will tell the tale, I will be calling 1st thing in the morning to get the real story.

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, June 12, 2015 - 02:09 am:

Walter,
Thanks for the clarification. I missed the correction to 150K.
So, did Ford recall or replace wheels to bring them up to rivet standard?
I will admit that I'm on the fence here, except to believe that the screws would likely work out and cause a flat (perhaps that was the reason for going to rivets?)
However, the short, unpeened rivets are a no-go, IMHO.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Friday, June 12, 2015 - 09:36 am:

Phillips screws have no place on anything old, especially wheels. I agree with Royce. Replace them with rivets. I'm not sure either if the rivet heads on todays rivets are identical to the originals. I would save an original rivet as a reference, so if needed you can reshape the head to match the original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Friday, June 12, 2015 - 10:43 am:

Called Mel this morning, Stutzman does indeed do his wheels. He his going to have Stutzman call me later today.

Will keep you updated.

brassscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, June 12, 2015 - 10:47 am:

In the meantime, can you post some pictures of the areas of concern for us newbies that are having difficulty visualizing the situation? Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Friday, June 12, 2015 - 11:30 am:

When they installed the offending screws they used a counter sink so the screws would end up flush with the rim.

The bad news is the counter sunk holes are drilled so deep there is very little parent rim metal left around the hole.

The holes will need to be tig welded and filled then ground smooth. New holes will need to be drilled through the rim and fellow and new rivits installed and swedged. That will solve the fellow issue.

The fellow plates are another issue. It seems according to Mel, that Stutzman welds pins onto the fellow plates and then swedges those to the rim.

As my car s truly a barn fresh car and we reused the original plates now they have a too short pin weld to the plates. It will be an issue to remove the welded pins without destroying the original plates.

Can't say I'm very pleased with this.

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, June 12, 2015 - 12:35 pm:

One option is to remove the rim from the felloe, rotate the rim from the original orientation (example - a few inches clockwise or counterclockwise) reinstall the rim on the felloe and drill brand new holes.

Out of curiosity, did you send complete original wheels or just the hubs and rims?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Friday, June 12, 2015 - 08:57 pm:

I sent the hubs and rims plus a full set of fellows and a couple spokes from 1 wheel. There should have been no reason to use screws as they had the fellow with the holes drilled for the original rivets. In fact the fellow still has the original rivets still in place.

brasscarguy


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