I have the demountable rims with the lugs for securing. Can these rims be used on the K/H style wheel with the raised flange for the clamp style demountable rim. I'm using 30" x 3 1/2" tires all around.
Kelsey and Hayes were two separate companies during the Model T time period, with two different wheel and rim designs.
Can you post some pictures of your rims and the wheel style that you want to mount them on?
I currently have a set of Hayes felloe wheels and Hayes attached-lug rims on my 1924 cut-off touring (now a pickup). I built a new set of wheels using Kelsey felloes. The Hayes rims slide onto the Kelsey felloes and the lugs line up, but there is a 1/16 inch gap between the inside of the rim and the outside of the felloe, so the rim doesn't have the proper support. I ended up buying a set of Kelsey rims, with their matching separate lugs, for use with the Kelsey felloes.
I also have a couple of Ford rims with attached lugs that do fit the Kelsey felloes without a gap. The Ford rims also fit the Hayes felloes that are currently on my car.
Here are some pics, either of some of my wheels, or pics I found elsewhere on the forum.
Kelsey felloe and rim:
Kelsey rim with separate lug:
Ford rim, notice the more triangular shaped lug, versus the more square sided lug on the Hayes rim:
This is the rim that I have. Two of the wheels have the raised flanges the other two are smooth. They did bolt on with out a problem, my concern is are the safe to use like I have them?
Looks like you have a Ford rim on a Kelsey felloe.
When I trial-fitted that combination with my rims and wheels, the rim was properly supported around its entire inside surface (no gaps), so I would personally feel safe running that combination. Here is a picture of my test fitting:
If others have differing opinions or experiences with this combination, please speak up.
Since you say you have two different styles of felloes, here is where to check for gaps. With the rim firmly bolted to the felloe, you should check to make sure there is firm contact in the circled area all the way around the rim (no gaps). If there is firm contact all the way around, you should be good to go.
In the May 15, 1920 Ford Service Bulletins, Ford stated in the second sentence below that the Kelsey and Hayes parts are not interchangeable. (Ok – they both use the same lug bolt, hub, but you know what they mean.)
The Jan 1924 Ford Service Bulletin has the part numbers listed for the rims and is shown below which will be helpful for the next paragraph.
The Dec 1926 Ford Service Bulletin below has a listing of parts used on the various wheels. Note Ford still insisted that the Kelsey style rim should be used on the Kelsey wheel. That is Rim 2845 that for the front wheel is listed on the first line for use with wheel 2800-E.
If Ford thought he could use the 2845B rim [which was manufactured for Ford by Firestone, Cleveland, and from memory Motor Wheel ] he would have saved a lot of inventory issues. But he still chose to insist that the Kelsey parts should be used on the Kelsey wheel. Note in a letter to the Ford branches dated March 7, 1924 they state: “The necessary changes have been made in the Kelsey wheel and rims also the Firestone and Cleveland rims so that with the exception of a few Kelsey wheels which are still to be shipped, we will have but one wheel and one rim for production, even though they are being shipped from three different sources. The felloe band on the Kelsey wheel has been changed so that it is exactly the same dimension as the Ford, Hayes, or Motor wheel and a car could be built with one wheel of each make. The rims have been changed to the ‘attached lug’ type and a car could be built using one rim of each Hayes, Kelsey, Motor Wheel, and Firestone.”
So basically after Mar 1924 all the demountable rim clincher wheels were made so they 2845B rims fit them safely. But before then – you had the Kelsey style and the other styles.
The safest thing would be to match the wheels and rims and have one style for all four wheels and 5 rims.
However, from memory (not as reliable as printed information) – at least one of our Australian posters talked about adding (making) an indent to their Kelsey style felloe and running the Hayes/Ford style 4845B rims. Note the number of available rims in Australia is much lower than in the USA. In the USA I would recommend obtaining the correct rims for your wheels. And as mentioned above having the set match so any rim could safely fit on any felloe.
If someone has the link for that posting discussing modifying the Kelsey felloe to accept the Hayes style rim – please let us know.
Mark – thank you for adding the additional photos. Would you please verify that the photo that you said had a Hayes felloe above is one of your wheels where the word Hayes is clearly stamped next to the valve stem as shown in your posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/504632.html?1419689507
If not could you share how you identified it as a Hayes’ felloe. The Ford service bulleting are very clear on the rims but so far I have not found as good a guide for identifying the felloes.
Note also that the Hayes produce rims with different shaped lugs see Steve Jelf’s posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/260403.html?1326660725
Peter Kable has some great photos of different rims on different felloes at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/39258.html I didn’t find the posting address, but Peter also posted the diagram below showing some different style Hayes felloes (flipped and labeled by Hap):
Note many of the Hayes felloes were designed for the rim to contact the felloe on the side next to the frame. The part of the rim on the outside of the car you can slide a piece of paper between the rim and felloe. You cannot do that on the side of the rim next to the frame. In one of the other posting Peter shows that. But on the Hayes rims that are straight on the outside felloe -- they don't have a nice slope for the rim to rest against on the outside of the car.
Note it is getting late so if someone reads this and sees I have the inner and outer reversed -- please let us know.
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Here's a photo of the Hayes 2845B lug shown in the diagram Hap posted. Note how the base of the lug goes in past the bead on the inside of the rim. You can usually make out the name HAYES stamped on these lugs. I've seen them with the almost-triangular shape and also with the more squared shape, depending on when they were made.
I believe this is a Hayes felloe. It has a notch to accommodate that past-the-bead lug on the Hayes rim.
If I've got this wrong, maybe somebody can set me straight.
John, in my experience the combination you have will work. Most of our Canadian sourced cars have the Kelsey slotted type felloes. The fixed lug rims used on our 1925 models bolt straight on, provided they are not Hayes rims with the foot on the lug. Your rims are not Hayes items.
However, if the wheels are on the rear of your car, be aware that the drive will be taken on the 4 bolts, so you need to keep them tight.
The Kelsey rim is designed so that the rim wedges onto the outside rolled edge of the felloe. The four detached lugs force the rim onto the edge. This binding of the rim to the felloe is what locks the rim in place and takes the driving forces. You will have a gap between a fixed lug rim and the felloe at this point, so the bolts have extra work to do.
The fixed lug rims are designed to wedge on a wider inside rolled edge on the felloe. When the bolts are tightened, the lugs should not be hard against the outside face of the felloe because the rim should have wedged against the inner edge before it goes on that far. This wedging again binds the rim to the felloe and takes the driving forces, rather than those forces being on the 4 bolts.
I believe the two types of felloes differ in two ways. The Kelsey felloe has a narrower rolled inner edge, almost the same width as its outer rolled edge. The felloe type taking the fixed lug rims has a wider inner rolled edge.
Secondly, the Kelsey detatched lug felloe with the slots is larger in diameter by 1/16" or so. The spokes offered by the vendors were of no use to us when rebuilding our Canadian sourced wheels, as they were too short [And lacked the taper front to back at the hub end] This is borne out by the detatched lug rime having to bind on the outer edge of the felloe.
I could be wrong, again!
Steve Jelf, Only our 21" rims had that outer edge without the rolled in section. I have never seen a 23" one like that.
Allan from down under.
Hap, here is a picture of one of the Hayes felloes and rims on my car, the felloes and rim lugs are both stamped "Hayes":
My particular Hayes felloes also have a cup around the stem hole, and the rim has a raised area around the stem that fits in the cup, presumably to keep the rim from spinning on the felloe and tearing the stem:
I have four of the Hayes rims, my spare rim is one of the what I call the "Ford" rim with the more triangular shaped lug. I have mounted the "Ford" rim onto my Hayes felloes and verified a good, firm fit (no gaps between the rim and felloe) and have run the Ford rims on my Hayes felloes for many miles with no issues.
My worthless opinion is that it was easier for Ford to tell folks not to mix and match rims and felloes than it was for them to explain what features to look for to ensure a good, safe fit of mismatched parts.
In the end, it is a personal decision on what combination of parts to run. When I eventually mount my new wheels with the Kelsey felloes, I have enough Kelsey rims to ensure that I will only run Kelsey rims on the Kelsey felloes. For now, with my current Hayes felloes and rims, I will continue to carry a "Ford" rim as a spare and will have no reservations about using it if required.
Update - I took a closer look at the two spare "Ford" rims that I have, they are different from each other, which I never noticed before.
One of them is actually a Hayes 2845B rim, like in Steve's picture. The lug has the extension that reaches towards the inside of the rim. Looking closely, I can just barely make out "Hayes" stamped on the lugs (it's nearly filled in with paint).
The lugs on my other spare rim have no manufacturer's stamp and do not have the extension that reaches in towards the center of the rim, so it must be a Ford 2845B rim.
Either one of them fit my Hayes felloes just fine with no gaps, I have test fitted them both.
Allan, the vendors (at least Lang's) sell slightly longer spokes to work with Kelsey felloes. I used them to build up my Kelsey wheels and they came out nice and tight. I can't speak to the taper at the hub end that you mentioned, maybe ask Lang's?
Thank everyone of you for all of the VERY helpful information. I never realized all of the combinations that are out there. Everyday is a learning experience!
Mark, you are correct. The longer spokes for Kelsey loose lug type felloes are now available. I don't know if they have the taper front to back like our canadian sourced cars. I have mine re-built by a fellow in New Zealand, and he builds them with this taper.
Allan from down under.
Allan, here are some pictures of the Lang's longer spokes that I took when I was re-spoking my Kelsey wheels, can you tell from them?:
Mark, from your photos I think yours do not have the taper front to back. You can tell by looking at the flat faces where the spokes meet the hub flange and the outer 6 hole plate. One face will be approx 1/8" narrower than the other. When the spokes are assembled to the hub, they are alternated with wide face out, narrow face out and so on. When the 6 bolts are tightened, the bases of the spokes are wedged together. With the holes for the bolts drilled between the spokes, the holes on the spoke bases are then not uniform all the way through.
I am burning some old spokes in our heater at the moment. If there are any still in the woodpile, I will photograph them for you.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
I have a photo which I took a few years ago for the forum.
Save you the trouble.
These spokes are a Canadian thing.
Thank you for the additional photos. We know that the drawing for the USA produced Kelsey wheel used by Ford had several revisions. Below is the top right hand corner of that drawing from the "Model T Times." Sorry, I didn't write down the page, month, and year. Perhaps someone has that handy or hopefully I can locate that and add it later. If I counted correctly in addition to the original drawing, the drawing was updated 11 more times.
And the change card would reflect smaller changes that did not need to be captured on the drawing.
Allan & Peter -- thank you for explaining and showing how the Canadian Kelsey spokes had the taper on the spokes where they fit together at the hub. From the Aug 13, 1923 drawing of the Kelsey wheel used by Ford USA, there is no mention of a similar taper and the drawing does not show any taper. Of course the previous 10 drawings may or may not have contained a tapered spoke in the drawing. I don't have those to look at.
But based on the postings I have read in the past, the Canadian Kelsey production used the taper on the spokes near the hub but I have not heard yet of any known USA Kelsey produced wheels for Ford that used that style for the spokes. If anyone else knows of any USA Kelsey wheels produced for Ford USA that did have the taper as shown by Peter Kable's photo, please let us know.
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Thanks Peter. I wonder how much more benefit this method of construction is? it certainly makes good sense in that the spokes will be tighter at the hub, as pressing them together closes any gap which may be there.
Allan from down under.
For what it is worth, my experience with Hayes rims on Kelsey wheels doesn't work. When my brother restored a 24 T that I subsequently bought from him, he put the Hayes rims on the Kelsey wheels. I had to do some work on the car but the first time I drove it, it was very uncomfortable. It felt like the car was going to come apart the faster I went. I jacked the car up and rotated the wheel and found that the rims were non "concentric". I ran my finger around the crack of the rim to the wheel and found that the crack got larger and them smaller. If you could keep the wheels in the same relative position, it would be a bumpy ride. However, that is impossible and you end up "loping" down the road. Needless to say, I now have Hayes rims on Hayes wheels.
R.S.,Your findings re the Hayes rim on Kelsey felloe are in line with what I would expect. The foot on the Hayes rim will interfere with the outer edge of the felloe, because there is no relief in the edge to accommodate the foot. Hayes felloes have a depression in the rolled edge to allow the foot of the lug to go on over the outer edge.
Other lugged rims without the foot will go on, but on Kelsey felloes I suspect they will not bind on the felloe edges, either inner or outer edges, so the driving forces are all on the four bolts.
I could be wrong.
Allan from down under.