Let the critiquing begin.........
i haven't seen one 1910 part on this one yet????????????????? charley
Closer to a 1912 in looks only! Body is 1912 style only. Later model chassis,rear axle (1913), later engine. As Charley says, no 1910 on this one, not much 1912 either.
I am in Montreal. I asked the seller if I could inspect it in person.
Grumble. (I need to learn how to put in frowny faces)
The car is not bad. But it is not at all right either. I would probably just ignore the whole thing if they didn't make such a point in their ad about being such a rare body style for "1910" and having been in the same family for such a specific "105 years" when clearly the car was nothing a hundred years ago.
It looks nice. It could be a really fun car. I wish I could have it just as it is. I would change a few things to make it at least appear a little more correct. I would call it a '12 and readily tell anyone to the point of ad nauseam that it wasn't really a "right car".
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
: followed by ( =
Wayne frowny faces (or smiley faces) are made by using the : symbol for the eyes and then use either ( for a frown or ) for a smile. Do not space between the two symbols, and the computer does the rest. I think the two symbols are called a semicolon and parenthesis brackets. Been to many years since I was in typing class.
If I ever install a water pump I'm painting in screaming blue.
and the water outlet...
LOL........even I know a lot of this stuff.......
I hope Royce gets to eyeball it........
They said it was totally restored , guessing it was done by that Edwards guy up there. It has his look, kinda sorta almost a model t.
I can see why calling it and try making it look 1910, the engine # is a 1915 Canadian one but if you read it as a US one without the C you get 1910, lets hope no one gets burnt fingers on this one.
Depends when it was put together (year). 70's, 80's?
They tried their best to do an early car. I have seen MANY like this one over the past 40 years. It is a nice Ford but it is not close to a correct car for the year depicted. Many people wanted an early Brass Ford but parts were unobtanium!!! So everyone did the next best thing that they could. It would be a great parade car. Or for touring like you all do. So I will not put it down. I am sure it served some family well.
Problem arises when people who knew and trusted the deceased (if they passed on) believed that it was the REAL item.
I once showed my 14 Roadster at a Mall show. Next to my car was an old 2/3's scale 1903 Olds with a 5hp Briggs engine in it. The old feller (then) (I was maybe 30...now I am the OLD feller) was having a hey day telling all who marveled at HIS car just how original it was! I could have disputed his claims. I just sat back and enjoyed his fun and attention too.
What I learned WAS... here sat my car (a correct car!!!) and it drew less attention than his factsimily!!! I had a hard time with that. But I seasoned well. The general public doesn't know nor do they really care!
I am glad when someone will point out the mistakes on the cars that are for sale because the owner needs to have their car judged first by a club like the MTFCA or the MTFCI prior to listing it on the sales listings. The more correct the car is than it can be categorized properly and not what it says on the title as was told to the license beaureau.
The frame on this car is more like a 14 to 16. The rear the same. Carbide Gen is a brass plated 13-14 unit too.I did not look further.
It looks like it needs a proper home though.
We have all seen this stuff before. "1909/10/11/12 (whatever year) model T, all original, has electric starter". What? These cars are always presented as if the later parts are an upgrade making them more valuable when in fact the opposite is true. Also, everything is a "barn find" these days, when in fact the pictures show it in someone's suburban garage where it has been sitting next to the water heater for a few years, long enough for the probate on grandpa's will to be settled. I have bought a few cars that were stored away for decades, but to be a "find", they have to have been "lost" or forgotten. All the ones I have bought, someone knew where they were the whole time. "Barn find". What a crock. Where are these barns? I have never seen one. People watch the pickers on TV and think this is real?
Remember the old addiage, "Buyer Beware". and my fav a fool and his money are soon parted. My question is how did the fool get the money in the 1st place??????
I like it
Yep, I do too.
I am going to see it this afternoon.
Royce find out what that funny looking blue thing on the left side of the engine is? and at least it comes with a lifetime supply of head gaskets!
Blue thing indicates the radiator is no good and the block is clogged completely with stop leak, oatmeal, eggs, water glass, molasses, and black pepper.
Hence the need to carry lots of spare head gaskets.
Judging by the description of the car, Royce neglected to mention another roadside stop leak, the droppings of a male bovine.
Zoomed in on some of the photos, to see details.
No real '10 parts there.
The rear cross member on this later frame cut off to simulate early one.
Really like the soft pine 2x4 support under the body.
Body is only fair reproduction, the true '10 has two piece seats with wood divider bar between. And the top and irons incorrect, true '10 has buggy rail around top of seats for the irons to be fitted. Rear fender irons and fenders wrong.
Carb side of engine, its an early one, about '15-'16 block I think based on the length of the serial number boss. The hogshead is alum, but has ribbed and numeral pedals, like a '12-'16 would have.
oops, meant to type "like a '15-'16 would have".
I bought the correct front axle and spindles for my 1910 Mother-IN-Law roadster at the last Hershey swap meet. My wallet is still hurting.
I do agree with everyone, there is almost nothing correct for 1910 on the car.
I would rather have the Healey!
Since no one else mentioned it what is with the GAP between the rear fenders and the splash aprons?
I think just about everyone here could agree that it's a 'neat' car, but certainly misrepresented. From the looks of the garage it gives the impression that the seller doesn't really know what they have and they're doing their best to get the best money they can. Capitalism, right?
Recognizing it as a Bitsa with an interesting body, what should it be worth?
I think we need to give the seller some positive credit. He did post. 24 pictures so you can see what the car really is. He may or may not know what is true 1910. He is willing for Royce to take a looksee and I am sure we will get a report. It is a very nice car, as always it's buyer beware. No one is being forced to bid.
I don't think we can put a value on this without more information.
What year is the engine actually? Any recent work done on it and by whom?
I'm looking forward to Royce's report. Royce is quite knowledgeable on early T's and there's nothing like seeing the car up close and personal, maybe even driving it.
That said, it is a very nice car and I wouldn''t mind having it myself.
The person that listed the car says that he is selling it for a friend. Accepting that as true, he has basically said he knows nothing about the car himself and is just repeating what the actual seller has told him. It still means that the actual seller knows nothing much about early model Ts.
The ironic and sad thing is that all too often, nice but made-up cars sell for a lot of money. I could see this car selling easily for at least $15K solely on the "it looks like one" factor. I would be shaking my head in disgust but would not be terribly surprised if it brought $20K. In actuality, I would say it is worth no more than about $10K as a "looks good fun car".
You should be able to buy a decent real '12 mother-in-law roadster for about $25K. Forget calling that thing a 1910. It is a decent "wannabe '12" misidentified as a '10. A real one should be worth at least twice what that one is.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
I went and looked at the car this afternoon. It is not far from downtown Montreal, just on the other side of Mont Royal. The shop specializes in vintage European sports cars and the car was one of three bought from an estate, the other two being more typical of their forte'.
The chassis looks like it started life as a Canadian '15. The radiator, engine, rear axle. and steering column are all correct for a February '15 Canadian car. The engine VIN is C27419. The "Made in USA" below the Ford script on the block is deleted, typical of Canadian blocks. The cylinder head also does not have Made in USA. The hogshead is aluminum, and it has lettered pedals, again typical for Canadian February 1915.
The wheels are oval shaped round fellow, typical of 1915 - 1917. The front hubs are later, perhaps 1920 Canadian. They have Made in Canada cast into them.
The rear axle is typical of late 1912 - mid 1915. It is deeply pitted from decades of use in a salt environment.
The frame, front axle, spring perches and wishbone are typical 1915 - 1918. The front axle is deeply pitted from rust. The spindles and steering arms are later, perhaps 1920. The tie rod is 1915 era. The drag link is bent.
Royce, did you manage to convince the owner of what it was and what it wasn't?
Canadian serial numbers for reference:
The body is a reproduction 1910. Tires are Universal ribbed, made in Pennsylvania, so they are 30+ years old. The spark and gas levers have been cut off so they could accept reproduction early knobs. The steering wheel center is an original early brass one, from 1911 - 1912. It has been flattened to give thigh room unfortunately.
The speedometer is a "D" date code, typical of 1913. Coil box is a reproduction filled with late all wood coils.
The intake is 1911 - early 1912. The carburetor is a 1915 Kingston "L".
All the fenders and splash aprons are Rootlieb. Top bows are probably 1915 runabout. There are two brass Rands windshields, both from 1912. One is the early 1912 equal size style, the one on the car is the later 1912 used with the one piece dash board.
There are a pair of 1912 Brown #100 side lamps in nice condition that go with the car. There are a pair of Brown 1913 - 1914 black and brass headlamps that go with the car, along with 5 spare head gaskets.
The cowl lamps on the car are not marked, probably from a non Ford. The headlamps on the car are Brown # 19 for a 1912.
The tail lamp is a Brown #105 from 1912. A nice lamp, and hard to find in this condition. The carbide generator is 1913 - 14 Corcoran with brass plating doing nothing to hide the rust pits.
That's all I have.
I asked the seller a question:
According to generally accepted records, that engine number is from 1913
Aug. 1, 1914 to July 31, 1915 C16501-C37500
How do you reconcile this vehicle being a 1910?
The response was:
its very possible but Im just going with what is written on the official title and registration of the car in Quebec since eBay demand to write what is indicated on the official documents. I can Email you a of that.Also buyer are more then welcome to come and see the car and exam at any time.
I have now asked if he believes there are ANY 1910 parts on the vehicle. I guess it is not fraud if you plead "I selling for a friend".
Certainly "Buyer beware"
From what Royce found the seller is a dealer, no friends involved. I still think it is fraud in my book.
Kudos to Royce for going out of his way and KNOWING what's what with the car.......
Regardless what the seller says, as a buyer, it's still a case of caveat emptor.
I am shaking my head. But according to the listing, he has bids at $25K.
Royce, Thank you for the details! (And what are you doing in Canada?) It appears that there is some really good stuff with the car. That and the appearance that it may be mostly a legitimate Canadian 1915 chassis could add some to the value. I still don't think it is worth anywhere near $20K. I would much rather buy the '14 touring from Paul Jacobs (I almost bought it from Larry C, but money was just too tight for me, if I had the money now, I would still be interested in it). For half the money and a fair amount of work, one could have a much more correct 1914 touring instead of a basically fake 1912 runabout.
Just my opinion.
Good job fellas ...
I tried to point out all the different year components. The guy is not really interested in or capable of comprehending the significance. He is a 1960's - 1970's sports car guy.
I am in Montreal to witness a BR700 engine being run in the test cell at Rolls Royce Canada this morning.
whats up with the drag link don't look safe to me???????????????. Charley
Part of what makes the car look goofy besides the wrong rear fenders is the windshield is mounted upside down. The larger pane would be on the bottom and then the stay rods would not be sticking so far out the bottom of the front clamps that are fastened to the front fender irons.
I wrote him again:
From a careful examination of the available picture, I cannot identify anything on the vehicle as 1910, The chassis is later, the engine 1915, the rear axle later, the body a modern reproduction, the fenders are Rootlieb reproduction. The vehicle is not a 1910 model
I think this is very close to fraud
This is the response:
some one came to exam the car yesterday he is an expert on these cars and know whats he saying and brought books and reference , and and identify as 1913-14 Canadian Ford he is an expert in the field and all is original I list the car according to what it say on Quebec title, ending is Canadian and all #s match everything else and the gas tank and also all the spring under the seat ,the front light are not the correct ones but I do have the correct front lights which came with car in a separate box ,the real light is correct as well .
I guess the only correct item is that Royce is an expert. What a fiasco...
Give the guy a break! The pictures show what the car is. If someone loves the car it might be worth 25K to him. If he has 25k to spend and is not willing to dig in and check out the details, then 25K just might be easy money to him. As I said before no one is being forced to bid.
No Ted, he doesn't need a break, he needs the truth for his own good, to keep him out of court, and seeing he can't or wont see or except good advice and alter his listing to inform a buyer for what it is, then he's just a con artist.
OT how do U feel about those composite fan blades on the RR engine U are looking at?
Wilf Bradbury ( retired RCAF pilot)?
The BR700-710A2-20 has titanium blades.
The advice he is getting is from people that he likely doesn't know. Could be he thinks its just someone trying to discredit the car for another buyer to come in and get it cheap.
If he doesn't do the research on his own, its just here say.
It's a old story-I'm selling this for a friend so i can tell you anything!!Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
It's a Frank-n-T-stein car. I would love to have the lamps and a few other items off the T separately though, being I am a Wanna B Purist.
Read Royce's post, he took time with books in hand to go over the car with the seller in person.
(Message edited by redmodelt on June 17, 2015)
To Vince's statement, it is true he has no idea who I am or why I was there. I told him I had friends who were interested in the car perhaps. I also stated that certain parts were from certain years, and none of the parts were 1910.
I had no books with me, just me and my camera.
Sorry, I was going by Tony's 8:41Pm posting and thought the seller was talking about Royce.
What do you all make of this one? Any good? Upcoming Auction on the east coast of Australia.
Looks to me like a nice 12. Wonder if it has the doors for the front. Others will have to pick apart the details. The water pump may mean a new radiator is in its future.
What a beautiful T that is Russell, our local resident authority on early T's, is on holidays but when he returns I shall learn more about it. I think the price may be under quoted as only several weeks ago a 10 at Shannons past in at 52K and sold the next day for undisclosed sum, A nice user not a trailer queen but this one looks like a piece of art!.
Never away from the fórum too long Frank. Plenty of time to check in ať airport lounges etc. The red 1912 is a beautiful car, although assembled from all correct model year parts. All new Rootlieb body and guards from the 80's. The owner was at the auction of the 10' as was obviosly pleased with the result so gave them another early one to sell. I dřove the car for a day ať the 1995 National rally.
Yeesh, with a bid like that my 26 might have to become a '10 too. Throw it on eBay then buy all the T's I want...
I am still shaking my head.
29K, wow is right Ed! At this rate, even though it is a "bit earlier" and a mutt, then when I decide to sell (if I decide to that is), my '15 which is as correct as it can get according to a well respected, very knowledgeable T person, then I should easily get the same! And my car actually SHINES!! Both top and bottom! This thing looks like it's been sprayed from a spray can using satin paint!
Wayne, I'm shaking my head too!
It has got to be the eggshell blue water pump. Eat crow water pump haters!