Exploded view of Ford magneto

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Exploded view of Ford magneto
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 09:29 am:



Looks like my Touring will be down for a while. :-(

I haven't torn it down to determine the cause yet, but I had the hogshead off the day before to change bands. It was going great for 6 miles then sounded like rocks in a coffee can for a couple seconds followed by a loud "BANG"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 09:35 am:

Derek my heart aches for you and your poor Touring. I pray I never have that experience! Good luck, and of course let us know what went wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 09:36 am:

OUCH! Looks like one of the magnets came loose Bummer:-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 09:46 am:

Did you leave something in it when you were changing/tightening bands?

I was hoping and expecting when I read this title that I was going to see another one of Martin Vowell's (sp) "exploded" drawings


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 09:53 am:

BTDT - looks as though you lost more than a couple ! My wife's coupe had a similar experience but without damaging the trans. cover - apparently a band washer was dropped inside, years prior to her purchasing it in Montana - Bummer !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 09:58 am:

Derek,
I am sorry for the damage that you have experienced. Flying magnets can do some real damage. It's not my goal to talk anyone out of running the original mag. however, that will never happen to my model T. Approx. 15 years ago, I removed the coils & magnets and run a bare flywheel and Texas T distributor. Also use a high volume (1/2") out side oil line and NO SLINGERS. Using Synthetic 10-30 oil with NO bearing adjustment over the 15 years of use.

I receive some "Flack" about my model T "Not Being A Model T Anymore".....however, it's still chugging and I love it. I consider the magnets like original crank shafts....it not the "IF" but the "WHEN" that we do not know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 10:10 am:

I'll tear it down when I get home, but we're leaving today to go on a tour... borrowing my parents' 1914 Touring for the trip since mine is broke.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie Spokane, WA on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 10:13 am:

I had that exact same thing happen to me when I was perhaps 17 years old. I stayed after work one evening to work on my T. I worked all night and when I put the hogshead on I was missing one pan nut. I looked and looked and finally convinced myself that it had rolled under the bench or some such thing. At about 3 a.m. I gave up looking and replaced it. I fired up my T to head home. I didn't get too far before I heard that awful sound of all of my magnets getting raked off.

I found the missing nut! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Kiefer - Adams, MN on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 10:49 am:

Derek, have fun in Galina and bring our T back in one piece I need it in Branson in a few weeks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 11:15 am:

Oh man. I thought with the thread title this was gonna be a really cool drawing. Totally faked me out. I saw first pic and thought "OH NO!"

Sorry Derek! LOL, Dean sounds JUST LIKE my dad too: "Hey! Don't tear mine up like you did yours."

"Yes sir." (shaking head) LOLOLOL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Kiefer - Adams, MN on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 11:39 am:

Derek, the only good thing about this is you forced me last night to do a few things on our 14 that I would not have done until the night before we went to Branson.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Loso St Joseph, MN on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 12:55 pm:

Derek,

I hate to say it but that looks neat, but I am sorry it happened. I guess it was better at home than on the tour though. I hope that valve job didn't cause this!?:-) Let me know if you need a hogshead.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 01:03 pm:

That left piece is half of a magnet in a place it should not be located.

The real question is, "how and why did it get there?"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Andreasen on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 02:50 pm:

That's really too bad and my heart aches for you. Hopefully you'll be able to get it up and running again soon.

I would guess that one of the cap screws retaining the magnet finally gave up the ghost after so many years. Couple that with the centrifugal force involved and you have an explosive situation..literally.

I'm in the beginning stages of rebuilding a 1918 engine and was planning to use the original magneto. Maybe I'll think about that a bit more....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 04:10 pm:

Model T magneto magnets are forgings and, after ninety years, may have cracks at the base of the VEE. Each one of them needs to be checked prior to reuse.
1
There are numerous posts on this forum about how individually check magnets for cracks prior to recharging and reusing them on a flywheel.
Although Derek could never had known it is imperative the flywheel be completely disassembled and every component check prior to reassembly during rebuild.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 04:18 pm:

There is another element of magnet mounting that must be checked during rebuilding. The magnet clamp screws commonly have crystallized and broken off heads.
1
My guess is Derek had a cracked magnet and the clamp screw head finally gave up leaving one half magnet to rattle around the hogshead to cause the damage.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 07:20 pm:

Looks like an entire magnet laying in there sideways to me..one part is laying at the very bottom of the hole in the picture, the other part pointing up at ya in the middle of the opening/picture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 10:06 pm:

Looks like you shelled out a hogshead. Not near as bad news a wrecked block would be. No fun tho!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Thursday, June 18, 2015 - 01:20 pm:

A wrecked block is not off of the table until the engine is torn down and the rear web carefully inspected. Hope all is well :-)

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 08:29 am:

Sorry Dad :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 08:35 am:

Double trouble?
What happened with the '14?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Meixner on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 08:35 am:

Derek, what happened to the 14. Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 08:41 am:

Derek..wouldn't it have been just about as easy to just disconnect the steering box from the frame, unhook the wires, remove the coils to save some weight, and then just pull the whole firewall out (after removing windshield of course)? Sounds like a lot of work, but it isn't, and sure makes plucking that engine out easier. Did that on my '12, was glad I did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 09:23 am:

We're thinking the problem is triple gear bushings, but not sure yet. This was Dad's "spare" engine, and the original is ready to go back in, so we're swapping it in and will dig into this one later.

Tim, we were going to try it that way, but ended up lifting the body because the firewall was swelled up around the bolts enough that we thought we might break it getting them out. It's a reproduction firewall made of particle board that was available from the vendors about 25 years ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Kiefer - Adams, MN on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 09:55 am:

Derek, what part of "bring it back in one piece" did you not understand? Dad


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Kiefer - Adams, MN on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 10:13 am:

Derek, this is your mother speaking. Glad you had a fun and safe trip, cars are fixable. Just make sure it is ready to go for us. HA! I still love you!!!!!!!!!! Your mom, Emily


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 10:25 am:

Well Derek at least he didn't use your middle name:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Doty New Salisbury, IN on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 10:40 am:

Derek

I heard that same noise that sounded like a rock or marble in a can and then the engine shut down. When I started it again it wouldn't run on magneto.

I called a buddy to bring a trailer. We were able to start it on battery to load on the trailer. After unloading it about 50' from my garage, I started it one more time to put in the garage. About 20' from the barn it went off with a bang.

After tearing it down, I found that the "marble in the can" sound was one of the clutch finger screws that had backed out due to a cotter pin that had failed. That's what took out the mag coil ring. The bang happened when the clutch finger screw got wedged between the magnets and the pan or hogs head causing many magnets to break and also broke the nose casting of the starter. It also put a dent in the pan.

Most likely something came loose causing the first sound you heard or something fell in while you were changing the bands.

I hope your block is undamaged. The rest you can fix.

Good luck

Kim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 11:22 am:

Derek,

I love the posts from your Mom and Dad. That put a smile on my face. About what my folks would probably say.

Good luck, Enjoy the time you are able to spend with your folks....that time is Precious.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Kiefer - Adams, MN on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 11:37 am:

Les, I am only 60!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Kiefer - Adams, MN on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 11:41 am:

Les, I am only 60!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Kiefer - Adams, MN on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 11:44 am:

Sorry, slow internet today. Thought I lost it and sent it again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 11:45 am:

On the engine I have just completed, the owner wanted to use a distributor and remove the magnets, to improve acceleration. All sixteen brass screws came out without failing but on removing the sixteen screws at the center of the flywheel, one of the magnets had broken at the V. The cracked ends are dirty so I think the crack has been there for many years. I guess the owner is lucky...
Many years ago I did an motor for a guys from Julian which had suffered the BIG BANG. I found three broken magnets, I can't remember if the crack were old or new, but it was a huge mess with copper everywhere. Strangely enough, the hogs head and pan appeared undamaged. I guess it is the luck of the draw.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Meixner on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 11:49 am:

Derek, you should explain this is 2 different trauma situations! Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 11:49 am:

Dean, I am 75 and still have my father who is 97.
Worked with my Dad since I was 8 helping him work on model A's & T's and other antique cars along with salvaged vehicles. We restored/rebuilt numerous cars over the years....wonderful memories.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 11:58 am:

Dean, I am 65 and still have my father who is 97.
Have been busy with my Dad since I was 8 helping him work on model A's & T's, restoring antique cars and rebuilding salvaged vehicles. We worked on a lot of cars over the years....wonderful memories.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Eyre on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 04:49 pm:

I broke one like Ron's picture in a 26 roadster back in the 80s mine went down and bent the crank flange about 3/16 of an inch. Made a lot of noise. I feel your pain. I take every flywheel apart when I go through a transmission. After about 65 transmissions I have found maybe 15 busted magnets and they all have been broken at the vertex of the angle by the bolt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Kiefer - Adams, MN on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 06:30 pm:

Les, my dad rebuilt the rotten wood on our 14 for me. My dad and mom went for many rides in the T. My dad died 8 years ago on his 87th birthday and my mom died 1 year ago at 88. Like you say, wonderful memories.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen- Central Minnesota on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 06:51 pm:

Derek,
I've got a spare motor ready to drop in. Let me know if you need to borrow it for a while. It's a '17.

Dean,
Don't take a single day for granted. I planned on building at least another decade's worth of memories with my father. Now, all I've got is the cars that we worked on and the photos that I found so annoying when he always wanted to stop our work to take them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 10:48 pm:

Eric, thanks for the offer. If I get ambitious, my TT has a fresh engine that needs some exercise but for now the focus is on getting my parents' car back together for Branson.

Andy Loso, I don't think your valve-job was responsible, but both cars had the set of coils I bought from you when they broke. Coincidence? ;) :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 10:10 am:

I think I found the culprit. A really beat up carriage bolt was one of he pieces that came out through the hole... There is a missing carriage bolt on the body mount at the firewall on the left side of the body.

I suspect the bolt came loose, fell out, and got stuck between the hogshead and pan ear. When I pulled the hogshead off, it must have fallen in then. I never knew it was there, so I never made any attempts to retrieve it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 10:54 am:

Very interesting.

Thanks for reporting the cause.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 01:52 pm:

For what it is worth - my engine damage on a hillbilly tour not long ago came from an errant bolt the exact size of the magneto ring to motor fastening size but there was no bolt missing anywhere inside the motor. I have zero idea how it got there and it had to have been in there for over 10 years and over 40K miles. If you told me this story as I am telling it to you I would have said BS but I was and am always super religious about counting every rag and bolt when I clean the oil filter in my motor and had driven the car all week before the bolt twisted a magnet keeper sideways and made a horrendous screeeeech sound that also instantly cut the magneto ground connection off at the mag ring and killed the motor on the spot. I thought it was a broken drum or something. I got super super lucky in that the ground was restored to the mag ring and a new brass bolt replaced the broken one and all was right with the motor. I still scratch my head and wonder if it could have fallen into the motor some other way or some other time when the transmission door was off but I never take it off or leave it off and have really not done anything to that motor for a very long time before the event.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart. Bakersfield, Calif. on Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 07:40 pm:

OUCH! Sorry to hear and see that. Your T must have been unhappy about something.


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