News just broke a drunk driver hit a Model T in the rear end near 51st and Harvard. Driver was doa.
Which driver? The drunk or his victim?
The model T driver was doa more news to come
What little I could find as of now is 3 veh are involved, a vintage car, and a jeep but no idea what the 3rd is. Does not say which car the fatality was riding in and no clue in the picture. update was as of 10:28 pm
What a horrible thing to happen. Condolences to the victim's family.
The other driver was charged with DUI.
Here is a link to a better story....
So sad. My prayers go out to him and his family. G-D drinking anyway. Throw the book at her.
Sad, So very sad. There is always carnage when Idiots drink and then decide they can drive !
My condolences to the family of the victim.
Some say the fact that she will have to live with that the rest of her life is enough. I'm with Tim, they should throw the book at her She will not change her behavior.
Condolences to the victims families.
My wife, a speech path., has worked with several victims of drunk drivers over the years. One was an extremely beautiful young woman, a model. Very severe brain damage; she was semi-comatose and could not communicate at all. I believe she passed away from complications of her injuries a few years after Maureen worked with her. Such needless tragedy. My very deepest condolences to the Bush family.
The trouble is folks that drink and drive don't care about the lives of others or they would not be driving drunk to start with. That woman will never change her ways until she is held fully accountable for her actions.
It mentions the T driver was wearing a seat belt. Would be a great asset to the hobby to learn more about that particular detail as seat belts are always mentioned here and discussed to great length. If he had 1 on,it apparently was not attached well.
Does anyone know the T driver/owner?
Was it truly a Model T and not a T-Bucket/hot rod?
All they said in the report was vintage car and model T as we all here know the media often gets it wrong when it comes to our cars.
No matter, tragedy and our thoughts are with the family that lost a loved one.
The photos at the link Warren posted show a stock 1923 - 25 touring upside down.
The story said neither driver was wearing a seat belt, and that the T driver was thrown from the vehicle and killed.
I personally knew Greg or Catfish as his friends knew him by. He was an excellent machinist and could make new parts from just looking at them.
Last time I saw the car did not see seatbelts in it.
Accidents happen and in a general sense, they're unavoidable because it's just part of the human condition to occasionally succumb to boredom, highway hypnosis, day-dreaming, etc. _Most of the minor scrapes in which we've all been involved could have been avoided if both drivers had been on red-alert and paying strict attention to what they were doing. _But our brains just don't work that way; we can't concentrate hard all the time, so we accept that along the course of our driving careers, we'll have been involved in a few fender-bender accidents.
But stuff like this is no accident. _A driver who puts alcohol into his or her blood and then gets behind the wheel is intentionally making a bet and the stakes are other people's lives. _The act is conscious and premeditated from the first moment the bottle pours into the glass at any point out of walking distance from home. _If you know you're going to drive, you don't order a drink. _Period. _I believe in forgiveness, yet public justice must be done. _Leniency, as is so often handed down by judges in DUI and DWI cases, only encourages more drunk driving, and such unnecessary grief as this becomes the all too frequent result. _My thoughts and prayers for the family.
Bob when I was "Younger" in the 60's My father took me to court with him one day when he had to testify about a drunk driver he had arrested. He told me this Judge had once been lenient with most drunk drivers (as were most Judges in the 60's) until he had a jury trial one day they adjourned for lunch and the defendant went out for a "Hydraulic" lunch upon returning for the afternoon session the defendant had a fender bender with the Judges Brand New Parked Cadillac.... after that Judge Hendry had no mercy on drunk drivers! Dad said more Judges should have that experience.
"The Jeep rear ended the Model T, and the driver was thrown from the vehicle and killed. Police identified that man as 68-year-old Gregory Bush of Tulsa.They believe Bush was wearing a seatbelt"
Moving a 2-ton metal object through the public sphere is no different than
firing a gun in a public arena, and requires exactly the same conscious decision
to do so.
Courts, leniency .... this is all a joke. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs a
six month exposure to the four walls of AA to really come to grips with what AA
calls "a disease". One has to understand the "alcoholic" mind to understand
what might bring change to that person. In most cases, it is a lifelong struggle
and most substance abusers never even make it to the "recovery" stage. They
just go on with their sociopathic behavior until they kill themself, usually taking
out others along the way.
The police officer interviewed at the scene in Warren's link said the Model T driver was not wearing a seat belt.
Thank you for the additional information.
Damn shame. Hope they throw the book at the drunk driver.
The Model T involved.
Just an observation ...
You are literally taking your life & the life of your passengers into your own hands if you make the decision
to drive any vintage vehicle that is relatively lightweight - in modern day traffic.
Particularly without a seatbelt.
Booze- the solution to, and cause of, much of life's problems.
Think we're all pretty much aware of the risks Freighter Jim. Thanks.
All of the things we do in life has a level of risk attached to it. Some people jump out of airplanes. Some people smoke. Some people drive motorcycles. Some people die of blood clots from sitting around doing nothing. I drive Model T Fords. It's a level of risk I'll accept.
Amen to that Jerry. Some of the "observations" made to this audience just amaze me.
Some of the "things that set people off" on this site amaze me. Think Jim's observation was wrong? Anyone ever have a "close call" driving a collector car? I sure have had more than my fair share! Feel free to comment on it or offer your own observation but nothing he said deserved an attack.
If you're referring to my posting, I would hardly call it an attack. It certainly wasn't as one. It was simply a comment.
Wow, I went through that intersection this morning. The driver's name was Gregory Bush. I didn't know him.
You can see how hard it was hit by the crumpled rear wheel.
Certainly wasn't meant as one, is how it should read.
Although not stated specifically, I don't disagree with Jim. Just saying I accept it.
Think he meant me Jerry, not you.
Howard - didn't say the "observation" was wrong. But I think it's superfluous to this audience. I've been around vintage cars for 40 years now and have had my share of close calls with modern traffic. It's a risk I take knowingly. I'd further submit that anyone who owns a T and is on this site also knows it's a risk. I don't need an "observation" that reads more like a lecture or a scolding regarding jeopardizing my life and the lives of my passengers.
Aside from it being unnecessary, given the thread and the fact someone lost their life, I think the "observation" was in exceptionally poor taste being posted here. The implication in posting that little lecture on this thread, intentional or not, is that the T owner shares some responsibility because he was operating a 90-year old. Think he deserves better than that.
It's a shame when anyone of our T friends passes away. It's a certain crime when it happens at the hands of another and no fault of our T friend just out for a drive.
Of course, we all could discuss all possibilities and Monday morning quarterback the event but for now I'll keep my posting thoughts to the grieving family and close friends.
My sincerest Condolences ....
Throw the book at the woman that did this.
She knew better.She decided to pick it up and turn it up and then cranked it up.
Repercussions should fit the crime.
Larry Young, I really did not know Greg either, but we did meet him.He attended our Talimena Run last year. He was driving the speedster that lost a rod just outside of Mena. I visited with him again at the Leake auction this year.Friendly guy.
It is not the 1920's anymore ....
If you wish to drive a vintage automobile in 2015 without a seatbelt in an urban city at 8:00 p.m. on a Sunday evening - go right ahead.
Furthermore - if you want to take passengers with you along for a ride and they too have no seatbelts - go right ahead.
If you want to take that as a lecture or scolding - go right ahead.
A decorated vet lost his life doing that and that is a shame.
Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned here ....
Three years ago on Memorial Say Weekend I lost a good friend - a fellow car hauler who was the BEST at what he did - better than me or anyone I have ever met ...
Wore an orange safety vest while loading & unloading - posted safety cones ...
That weekend he left a small restaurant in South Florida on his motorcycle after lunch & was killed by a driver exiting a shopping center.
He was not wearing a helmet - he bled out at the scene.
Sometimes taking a risk is just not worth it.
Sir,What vintage cars trucks cycles do you own and drive?? Myself i like the freedom found in my beltless 1914,so what do you own?? Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
Thanks "Freighter Jim" - well "observed."
Was wondering the same thing Bud.
Unfortunately, if I ever get my 1921 Runabout restored (with lap seat belts custom installed), I think the safest way to drive it is with a 3-vehicle motorcade convoy (modern vehicles in front of and behind the Model T), with magnetic flashing strobe lights on the front, rear, and sides of the Model T's body, and with me wearing a crash helmet. Otherwise, where I live (Odessa, TX), I risk being hit by some worthless as*hole rich kid or oilfield redneck speeding to get through an intersection on a yellow light (most common), or after the light has turns red (very common). It's ridiculous.
In any event, if you drink, then you also probably drive while intoxicated (DWI) -- at least according to a doctor I once deposed. As you know, he was right. Actually, I don't care if you agree with the doctor, because he was right. If you DWI -- to jail you go -- no excuses -- no mercy. If someone dies in a collision while you are the DWI driver -- then lock you up and throw away the key. What part of "Don't drink, don't drive" don't you understand? Got that?
See Dick drink. See Dick drive. See Dick die. Don't be a Dick.
My daily driver does not have a seat belt ('51 Ford F1).
I am going to install a three point belt, one on each side.
We enjoy our MGB and the MG club tours.
I installed a roll bar some years ago. Being a '73 it has three point belts.
I have been looking at racing harnesses.
I will now get a couple instead of just looking.
I think I will do the same for the front riders in my '26 touring, and just leave the lap belts in the back now that our kids are gone.
Some years ago one of our T guys was hit in the left front.
The express wagon spun around and the driver was left on his back in the street. Only small injuries.
Good seatbelts are not a bad idea in any car, especially an open car.
I won't say anything bad about you if you don't agree.
You can lock yourself in a concrete bunker and be truly safe. Not much of a life though. Better to drive a T......carefully.
Would a racing harness system work effectively in a Runabout or a Touring?
In my humble opinion, any time you drive in a car that is basically a tin can with small wooden support for the body, you are vulnerable in today's world. You can take every reasonable precaution, but you don't have a chance against idiots piloting 2 ton semi-guided missiles traveling at high speeds. You are welcome to your rights, freedoms, and whatever else you choose, but in the end, it's not about your caution, it's about the fool who is going to kill you when you least expect it.
Bad things happen everyday….a result of living in an imperfect world inhabited by creatures of limited ability.
Some of us will be fortunate to live a relatively long life – some with grievous pain – some with no ailments of any kind.
Eventually we will all draw our last and final breath.
Perhaps we can lengthen our lives by observing what actions caused others to stop breathing – and maybe take steps to avoid those actions. Then again, since we are free people to do as we wish….anything can happen.
For those of us who believe that a better existence awaits us when we leave here, it would be nice to offer a prayer or two for safe passage to the next world for those who have departed. Not sure what those who don’t believe can do.
In any event, our time on this planet is only temporary….enjoy it while you can.
Yes, Chuck and Dave, what you state is true.
Yet, is there a safety harness system that is recommended by MTFCA for use on a Runabout or a Touring (front seat)?
Not looking for assignment of liability for recommendation of a product. Just want to know if someone who has found something that works best.
@ http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_model_t/interior-parts-and-trim/seat-belts/sea t-belts.html
Installation Example in a Model A:
Definitely food for thought- my Touring's safety is something to consider as I have small children. Sad to see someone taken from the negligence of an idiot - a loved one needlessly lost.
It looks like the car rolled. Seat belts would probably not have helped in this situation.
It is unfortunate he was hit from the rear. He had no way to react.
My condolences to the family
Dave, I was thinking the same thing.
It's sad when we lose a fellow model T driver....especially when it was not his fault and could have been prevented.
I have lap belts in my restored 29 model A steel bodied roadster p/u. However, being a roadster...there is not much protection if the car flipped and went up side down.
In comparison, my 13 model T touring has a wood framed body with not much support for securing lap belts. The top and windshield does not offer much protection in the event the car flipped and went up side down.
A 1911 model T roadster rolled over on a tour that I helped plan. The driver and passenger did not have seat belts. The driver was trapped under the steering wheel and the passenger was ejected. They were not driving fast and the accident happened on a sharp turn when the steering went over center. Others following quickly lifted the car off the driver who was injured the worst. He spent a week in the hospital recovering from broken bones and a punctured lung. In addition to his injuries....by the time he was removed from being pinned by the steering wheel, he was also saturated in gas from the leaking gas cap. The passenger received only a broken finger and scrapes. The accident could have been much worse with loss of life.
Thank God both are doing well to day and the model T is nearing completion of a complete restoration.
The cause was attributed to a front end that was badly in need of a rebuild. Everything had a ton of slop and the car should not have been driven in that condition. That accident could have been prevented! The driver was new to driving a model T and did not do a safety inspection as a seasoned driver might do. A lesson for us all to learn from.
I am a strong supporter for safety belts.....however, I question how effective they may be with early open cars that have little if any roof support. Depending on the accident and how the car ends up.....wearing a seat belt may not save a life and could help ending one.
My condolences to the family.
I look at driving a T just like riding a motorcycle. You have no protection. Ride like everybody else on the road is out to kill you, as well as the deer, dogs, Buffalo, cows, etc. As far as I'm concerned, the risk is worth it. As my friend Roy Fulton said when asked why he was building a new race car when he was pushing 80: So you want to die coming out of turn three with a grin on your face like the ripple on a slop bucket or fall out of your wheel chair while they're pushing you down the hall to change your diaper before they put you to bed, eh?
Wow, Thanks Freighter Jim I never looked at it that way before. There have been nearly two dozen fatalities in the 15 mile stretch of interstate just north of me. The two dozen I refer to were simply driving along and were run over by semi drivers that were speeding, driving longer days than allowed, etc. I guess it was the drivers faults for driving in vehicles not able to stand up to the semi trucks that ran them over. Just a perspective I never looked at before. Thanks.
Ah Hell, here we go again!!
Freighter Jim THANKS so much for stating the your opinion. But really are you for real??
How disrespectful can one get?
And as for the rest of ya all who want to go on and on about how this man, a fellow model T hobbyists could have been more safe, shame on you too!!!
Reality check. That man has family and friends that are likely greving right now.
also remember this man was asulted by a Drunk Driver. If there was something to point the finger at, I would start there.
I am " for real " ...
I was married to an alcoholic for (17) years who drove drunk (repeatedly) with our three minor daughters in her car.
Her father & mother both were alcoholics - so were her grandparents - all died of alcoholic related illnesses.
She is still alive - drinking herself to death.
Yeah Mike - I got firsthand experience with that one covered ....
I also have firsthand experience being rear ended by an impaired driver ....
About (5) years ago I was rear ended outside of Barstow, CA by a woman asleep at the wheel with her cruise control on doing 79 plus miles per hour.
I was towing my 40 ft. triple axle open trailer at 55 m.ph. (legal speed limit) wearing a seat belt.
The woman who was asleep at the wheel was wearing her seat belt - as well as her mother who was also in the front seat - her young daughter in the back seat was also wearing a seat belt.
Front passengers both hit the windshield - all passengers were back boarded by ambulance from the scene.
The Model T driver who lost his life was also a motorcycle driver.
Many of you have profile images of family members posted (some children) - who you no doubt cherish.
Would you have those family members in your Model T on a Sunday evening at 8:00 p.m. driving in a busy urban area wearing no seat belts ?
The fact remains that we live in 2015 - not 1915.
We share the road - all of us - with other drivers that sometimes are impaired by alcohol & drugs & sleep deprivation ...
To minimize the risk of personal injury to ourselves and our passengers - there are safety precautions most recognize & consider to be prudent.
If this tragic accident gives cause to one Model T or other vintage car owner to install seat belts or to perhaps not drive
in a busy urban area during evening hours - maybe there can be a lesson learned.
I always buckle up.
I periodically check my rear view mirror - even when driving on the freeway.
Everyone has tough stories.
Didn't know Greg Bush. Just know he died tragically at the hands of a criminal while minding his own business and enjoying a passion most of us who frequent this site share. He and his family deserve better than to have his decisions publicly questioned and criticized - particularly in such a condescending and sanctimonious manner by someone who merely profits from this hobby.
Done with this thread.
Jim I hate to get involved on the debate over seatbelts in vintage "open" cars but will say this, That vehicle appears to have rolled over on its top Strapped in would not have lessened the outcome! Can we get back to the subject of this thread a t'er lost his life at the hands of an inconsiderate individual
We drove our 14 160 miles yesterday. We are lucky to be able to drive almost all our T miles on back roads,even so I check the rear view mirror before I do anything,assuming anyone in back of me is distracted. I cant decide about seat belts,good if the car dosent roll over,but if it does? I have car seat hooks installed for the grandsons,but still wonder. One thing I do install and have no doubt about is a steering stabilizer. I have been hammered by Royce in the past for this,so I will state now my front ends have been rebuilt and have no problems. It does just what it claims, stabilizes the steering if your wheels hit something unexpected. An added plus is you can back up a T just like a normal car. I installed one in my wife's 20, she did not notice any increase in steering effort.
"We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."
Life is full of unpredictable circumstances. The difference here is this was not one of them. The DUI driver made a conscious decision to commit an act that almost always ends with a negative outcome and quite often at someone else's expense. Nobody could control her actions up to that point (as far as we know), but we do have a system in place that can control her actions thereafter. Hopefully she'll never have the same opportunity again.
Very sad indeed and if you think drunk driving isn't a societal problem, then go ahead and keep posting that Gipper quote and It'll be "Bedtime for Bonzo" for sure. Drunk driving has been on the decline for many years thanks to a societal and legal crackdown, just not enough yet. Very sad that individuals think, despite all the warnings, that booze and cars can mix. She'll get what's coming to her.
I started this thread to get the truth out about a T wreck, not to have a deceased friend run over by busy bodies saying what he did or did not do.
The facts are the car was hit by a drunk and it did flip. The drunk woman is now responsible for murder!!!
His family is now hurting and should not be subjected to seeing any of this crap.
Good grief, James. I think what happened is indefensible and that the crackdown is good. I don't know how what I posted could be misinterpreted.
The T driver didn't do anything wrong, seatbelts or not. The drunk driver is the guilty party here.
It could have been a 2015 Harley Davidson or 2015 Ford Mustang instead of a Model T.
Drunk drivers kill and injure people in all types of vehicles.
This entire thread should be deleted!
That driver could have just as easily been killed by an errant trailer due to a broken hitch...
Some would say doing what you do is unsafe.
Its best to avoid busy streets with the T, but its not irresponsible.
People think it funny of me to have turn signals and brake lights and seat belts, but traffic has changed since 1916. I wear a motorcycle helmet when I get out in traffic, but I am just trying to survive this fast paced world.
What type of car he was inspired by Ford in the production of the Ford T.
Oldsmobile Curved Dash or Panhard oldsmobile ?
Can you help me?
Unless you are a structural engineer, there is no way that you can install a useful set of seatbelts in a model T or any other car that was not designed for them. The seatbelt geometry is critical, and the installation points have to be designed to absorb the loads caused by the crash. No antique cars of the '50's or earlier were designed with seatbelts in mind. Installing seatbelts in a T is a "feel good" project, but unless you also install a NASCAR-style roll cage, it is an exercise in futility. Either accept the risk, or leave the T at home and enjoy looking at it.
Sorry John, I respectfully Disagree. I hate to get into a seat belt thread here in the midst of a tragedy but in rememberance of my best friend RDR who was adamant about the use of belt in a model T I must respond.
Of course T's did not have belts installed when built nor did many other vintage cars. That does not mean that they weren't needed or won't protect one from injury in many vehicle crashes. You don't need to be an engineer to look at your vehicle and locate a secure attachment point for seat belts that are available at aftermarket stores everywhere.
According to the insurance industry most vehicle accidents happen to the left front of a car and also within a close proximity to your home and not at a high rate of speed.
Consider your passenger sitting next to you unsecured if you simply jammed the brakes in a panic or you accidently bumped up against the curb stopping quickly when the passenger didn't expect it. This very simple event could more than likely throw the passenger into the windshield or the dash causing an injury. Most likely a minor one but this is a simple accident. Now think about that guy that pulls in front of you to jam the brakes and make that right turn into the mall and you rear end him with minor damage. The driver may be OK or have injuries from the steering wheel but you can be sure your passenger will have more serious injuries and may even be out on the street. This happens all the time and most times we never hear about them.
A seat belt would most likely keep the passenger secured in the seat.
I know in a rollover, it might not be best but again many times the unbelted passenger is thrown out of the car and then crushed by it as it rolls over them. I believe these are the extreme cases and don't happen too often, Thank God!
Just my ideas and as they say YMMV.
Be Safe and watch out for the other guy and also your passenger.
When I ride with Gene, I wear a seat belt he has installed.
I also have seat belts installed in my touring.
(Message edited by kirkiep on June 23, 2015)
John C Codman said it so well I cant add to it.
The structural engineers that designed the seatbelt system in the 1957 Ford did it exactly as I would have done. I ain't no injunear but I must be as smart as one.
So john and Kirk, are you saying I'm safer without seat belts in my '51 Ford pickup than I am with them?
The vehicle was NOT designed for seat belts.
How are the '68 and later vehicles different?
Chuck - I agree with you completely. I would add a comment or two though, that I think might be worth consideration:
I did add seatbelts to our depot hack, mostly because our grandkids ride in it, and it's basically an open car, and the seatbelts, as far as I'm concerned, are mostly to keep the real little guys from jumping around so much that they might fall out!
My other comment is that it's no accident that all seatbelts nowadays are a shoulder belt as well as a lap belt. With only a lap belt, I can't help but think that while that might keep you in the car, a lap belt by itself is also a fulcrum (for lack of a better word) that would act as a "hinge" in your body to ensure that your head would whip violently forward and smash into the objects such as the inside rear view mirror, hand activated windshield wiper control, the top of the windshield frame, or the windshield itself.
For what it's worth,.....harold
With the exception of keeping kids from jumping around I have to agree with most of the negative comments concerning seat belts in a T. Sad but true is the fact that you're better off getting tossed out than staying in a T that flips. This tradegy was caused by another uncareing driver but even with the single car accidents that have happened over the past few years it's apparent getting clear is your best bet. Not great but better. I'll also ad, from personal experience, in today's traffic 4 ways and turn signals don't help a bit. You're just in the way.
So Charley, when I'm driving my T down the street and I see a guy approaching the intersection on my right and I am going to turn right I should not signal? Just let him sit there and wait and think I am going straight on?
If my car drops dead along the road I won't help the situation by turning on 4-way hazard flashers?
A T was not designed for stop lights.
I guess it be safer if I removed them. Huh?
Aaron,a sober,alert driver pays attention to signals and lights and acts accordingly,thus preventing a accident.
A drunk is just that, a drunk that is irresponsible and not capable of paying attention or reacting quickly to changing conditions around them. No amount of signals, lights,signs or billboards would have saved this mans life.
And by the way,when I was rear ended by a semi,the seat back was broken and was laying flat against the rear seat in the cab.
Folks don't realize a 240 pound human body in a wreck moves in strange ways it was not meant to and the force it hits other objects with is much greater than folks may think.
Federal guidelines required shoulder belts in 1968 and later model year automobiles and light trucks sold in the USA.
Seat belts were required beginning in 1965 model year.
Turn signals, four wheel brakes, air bags, windshield wipers, brake lights, electric head, tail and stop lights all were made federal and state mandates at various times.
None of these things are legally required in a Model T. You can make the argument that if someone were injured as a result of improperly installed (any of the above) that you would be liable for damages and your insurance would certainly not pay.
You may be right Royce, but I am still not gonna remove the 3 extra stop lights and the directional lights from my '51 pick up.
It came new with no directionals and just one stop/tail light.
I added the extra lights, but since I am not a structural engineer I guess I'd better remove them and just drive with one tail light and no directional lights.
I am always amazed to read how stupid some think the rest of us are.
Aaron, I don't think anyone is calling you stupid.Lights are designed to be a visual safety device.Not a device dependent on the structure it is attached to withstanding forces it is not created to handle.
Go to a junk yard and look inside some cars with factory belts.You will find reinforcements around the areas they are bolted to. In most cases the seat belt mounts could support the cars weight if lifted by them.It has to be strong as a 200+ person being slung around in a car in a wreck is alot to hold back.
Aaron, I think what Royce is pointing out, is that in today's litigious society ANYTHING we do could be used by a lawyer to his client's advantage.
This is a Lose-Lose situation, I suspect!
Today's driver is NOT used to a vehicle with only one tailight. When I was a kid, they were common on older pickups etc. BUT that was 55 or so years ago, back when hand signals were on the drivers' tests!
And yes, most of my cars have only one tailight, but I am reconsidering that! (I have more old cars than new cars, so I can say "Most"!)
It's the government - they are here to help us. Years ago I was in the cockpit of an airplane that had the usual warning placards (litigious society), as well as one on the back of the pilot's chair....boldly stating:
THIS SEAT MUST FACE FORWARD DURING TAKEOFF AND LANDING
What are we to do with such "help"?
A friend of mine has an English biplane with an even better placard:
MINIMUM CREW: ONE PILOT
Ummm... Thanks for that.
First and most important- My sincere condolences and prayers go out to the family of the Model T driver.
Secondly- I'm planning to build a speedster (26 Chevy power) It WILL have the following-
lowered, 4 wheel brakes, steel disk wheels, full compliment of lights (3 brake, turn signals/4 ways etc), doors, rear view mirrors, seat harnesses (NOT belts) and a roll bar. I have absolutely no intention of becoming a red streak on the road due to some dumb***. This will probably replace my 23T... Let the s**t fly, as everybody is this great country is entitled to their opinion (at least for now)
Well, I for one, am certainly not going to wear a motorcycle helmet when I take the T out for a ride! I accept the risks involved with this hobby, but to go to that extreme I would rather park the T and not take it out again!
Not for me,
Look, my point is quite simply in modern traffic you're in the way. Something to get around so you can continue at the posted speed of a road. Usually in my area it's at least 40 MPH. You're the guy in a front end loader with your 4-ways on going flat out screaming at 25 or 30 MPH. Something to avoid or get around. OK, this is an exception but is the absolute truth. On the day after completing my stop/turn/tail/4-way installation while waiting to make a left with my left blinker on the a.h. behind me cut out to my left and passed me to make his left when the light changed. He was, as I said an a.h. but he did that totally stupid thing because he had to ride behind me for 1/2 a block before reaching the light and it was too slow for him. T's and modern traffic and moron's don't mix. Should you take every thing off? No but should you rely on or take a false sense of security from them? Heck no.
I am not suggesting that you do or do not do anything. I am suggesting that whatever you do might be the subject of unwanted litigation at your expense one day. Think about that, and decide what you want to do. It's your car.
I think Royce is on to something. These bottom feeding ambulance chasers will come up with the most absurd arguments as to why their clients should sue. And, we all know, if there's ANY chance of winning the lottery, whoops, I mean lawsuit, most people will forget any moral conscience they may have previously had.
OK, Royce and Chuck.
I fully understand, and to some extent I even agree with you.
But....It will be a lot easier for me to explain why I am being sued for having stop lights and directional lights and seat belts than to explain why I died in an accident because I didn't have them.
I can just see the papers now: DUMBASS being sued for having stop lights by a drunk driver who rear ended him.
I don't have to be an engineer to know where to reinforce the floor where the seat belts bolt in if I can't go through to the frame.
If a 4" by 6" plate under the sheet metal floor won't hold the seat belt from pulling the bolt through..... you gonns die anyway.
I'm with you Aaron, I'd do everything I could to be as safe as possible. I was concurring with Royce about what a sick world we live in today.
Today and forever. The world has always had an abundant supply of avarice and mendacity. There's a reason the Commandments were written thousands of years ago, not yesterday.
Also an abundance of greed and untruthfulness......
I will stand by my original post. Unless you are a structural engineer, you cannot do a safe installation of seatbelts in a car not designed for them. Even auto manufacturers get it wrong once in a while. 60 MINUTES did a story some years ago about an improperly-designed factory rear seatbelt installation in some model of a smallish Ford product. There were several cases of severe spinal injury that resulted in paralysis to passengers wearing their seatbelts in these cars that were involved in crashes.
I am not suggesting that you are less safe with a homemade seatbelt installation then with no belts at all; any half-decent installation has a good chance of preventing a person from being ejected from the car in an accident. I am suggesting that the installation can fail, in which case you are no worse off then you would have been without belts.
I am curious about the belts in a '57 Ford. I know that Ford was one of the first manufacturers to get seriously into safety. They were first with padded dashboards and deep dish steering wheels, but I didn't realize that they had seatbelts in 1957. Were they standard or optional? I had two '62 Chryslers with them, but they were an option. My '60 Buick did not have them.
Mack commented on the 24th that a car could probably be hung by it's seatbelts in a proper installation. Some years ago Chrysler was sued for a supposedly weak (seatbelt) installation in a Chrysler model. Chrysler removed the windshield from one of these cars and hung it by it's seatbelts on a crane in front of it's headquarters. My suspicion is that the lawsuit went nowhere.
Myself i do not want seat belts in any of our vintage cars but thats us! However if i did want seat belts i think i could install them myself?? All the huffing and puffing about Structural Eengineer's reminds me of working with many of them when i was a Millwright.Yup,We can build your conveyer to x-24 bay in bld 56 but it will take more steel as building 56 stops at x-bay 22!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.PS,Teach is good.Preach,not so much!!! Bud.
The purpose of seat belts is to avoid what is called the "secondary collision" of the occupants inside or outside of the vehicle. That is, upon the vehicle's impact, the occupants inside the vehicle remain in motion until they themselves hit another object - inside the automobile or if they are ejected, outside the automobile. An example of a secondary collision within the vehicle would be an occupant being slammed into the windshield. An example outside the vehicle would be an ejected occupant hitting the pavement.
Seat belts are most effective if there is "room to live" in the passenger compartment after the collision.
This can be done in two ways:
1) the vehicle is so heavy and well constructed that it doesn't get damaged when hit by another vehicle and the passenger compartment remains intact. Automobiles are not designed this way.
2) the vehicle is designed with crumple zones that absorb the impact and end up damaged leaving the passenger compartment relatively intact with room to live. This is how modern vehicles are designed.
Antique automobiles are not designed like modern vehicles. While seat belts may eliminate ejection from the vehicle, that doesn't do any good if the passenger compartment is crushed.
When you drive an antique car, you are taking a gamble. If you want protection, you are probably better off wearing motorcycle armor and a helmet rather than installing seat belts.
Hey, I've got an idea ! Howzabout we enact a law telling everyone to do
the right thing and be responsible. That oughta get those stunt drivers out
there to drive more carefully !
For my .02 worth,that was the best post i have ever seen on the issue Erik!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!My thanks to Erik!!!!!!!!!Bud.
For my .02 worth,that was the best post i have ever seen on the issue Erik!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!My thanks to Erik!!!!!!!!!Bud.
You can say that again Bud.
John C, now you are making sense, but I still say the average guy that repairs and restores cars does not need to be an engineer to install a seat belt that will do the job. I am not an engineer, I have lap belts in my two Nashes and my '26 Ford touring and I am gonna still keep using them and I am gonna install three point or four point belts in my '51 Ford pickup that I drive a lot every day, wheather any of you fellows disagree or not.
I can.t imaging driving down I889 or 680 with my pickup with a cab height shell and traffic following and moving from the center lane to the right lane and taking an off ramp without signaling.
And I will continue to use the directional lights that I have installed on those cars as well.
The '48 Nash had one little stop light on the trunk handle. Not good enough.It now has a stop light in each tail light so now there are three stop lights.
I am even considering going to LED lights on the rear of my pickup just so they can be seen better when the sun is.......
As to the '57 Fords with seat belts:
In 1955 I worked for the owner of KSTP radio station in Minnesota at his lakeside home.
His son had a new Ford station wagon with seat belts.
The driver's left belt was fastened to the lower left rear corner of the door. The other three were the same. There were lap belts only.
The idea was that the belt would keep the door from flying open in case of an accident.
Seatbelts were optional, and that was the only car I ever saw that early that had them..
I still say (as in my earlier post in this thread) with a lap belt only, be conscious of where your head will go in a head-on collision or if you hit something. Your body will act like a hinge, with the pivot point at the lap belt. Removal of any sharp protrusion above the windshield makes sense, and, obviously, safety glass in the windshield. Those as old as me, or older, will remember that in the days of cars with lap belts ONLY, there were often padded sun visors for your head to strike. Something to think about,......harold
Methinks there is also a WIDE variety of driving environments in which
our contributing audience is drawing their paradigms from. Any sort of
urban freeway driving with a Model T should earn the driver an honorary
place with the moron commission. And I'm not saying that this is the way
it SHOULD BE .... we SHOULD BE able to drive safely anywhere ! What
I am saying is THIS is the WAY IT IS out in the real world.
We have good old I-90 running through Spokane, and plenty of dipsh!t
stunt drivers .... late for work, for a hair appointment, got an urgent text
to make, or they're just plain idiotic/inattentive drivers to worry me about
this very thing with my speed machine TT, but by-and-large, it is fairly easy
to navigate my little world and stay away from the manic paced loons out
there, distracted by their phone apps or stereo tuning.
To my thinking, this is where a T needs to be and stay .... in an environment
similar to that in which T's were born into. A much slower paced and less
frenetic street scene. Hit the back roads, stay off the "speedways", and as
always, keep a vigilant eye out for bozos.