What sort of timer is this?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: What sort of timer is this?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 04:40 am:

Can anyone tell me what type this is? Its on my newly acquired spedster that I'm getting close to firing up, its been in storage 3.5 yrs. It looks different to my Coupes so firstly what type is it and what do you suggest I check before I try to fire her up?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 05:04 am:

Take it off, clean, check for wear and oil if it's a type that needs oil (or grease)
Since it has a oil cup, I suppose it's a Ford style roller timer? Could be a bad repro, but if it isn't trashed inside I suppose you can drive with it, at least for a while :-)

(Message edited by Roger K on June 23, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 05:51 am:

Now I see it's a RH drive style with the timing rod attachment 180 degrees from the oil cup. Then maybe it's a Ford original timer that can be successfully refurbished if worn?
Don't know if bad repros has been made in RH style?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 06:35 am:

Thanks Roger, If I take the top off I can wipe clean etc but exactly where and how do I check for wear?
Ta


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 06:57 am:

Kevin,

Here's some information that may help you.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/335596.html?1358378979


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 08:19 am:

Thanks Dave I enjoyed that thread, might take it off and have a look tomorrow if I'm quick enough before my hands freeze lol


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 01:13 pm:

At the very least, rotate the red wire away from the engine so as to prevent its shorting out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 06:58 pm:

Good spotting Jerry, Thanks. I found some burnt wiring behind the dash plate so I will replace these & check all the wiring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 02:10 am:

Kevin, roller timers tends to wear the insulation material between the contact areas until it gets bumpy. The roller can't follow the jumpy ride at higher revolutions, so a tell tale sign of a worn timer is when it starts to miss at higher rpms.

If the contacts are thick enough, the timer shell can be resurfaced in a lathe, making the roller ride round again. I would try to arrange a dremel in the lathe, so the dremel grinds the new surface, but there are many ways to do it, Stan Howe explains one way in this thread: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/209193.html?1304481809

I found this photo at the forum showing typical wear:

worn timer


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 04:38 am:

Thanks Roger.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Thursday, June 25, 2015 - 02:40 am:

Is it a Ford Timer?
How does this look for wear guys?
After seeing these pics what would you do prior to starting her up?
Thanks heaps.
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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, June 25, 2015 - 03:08 am:

Looks like a roller, but it's on the other side of the cam shaft so I can't see the condition.
The timer shell looks ok, just clean it out well and oil it frequently (or try some really soft grease, but since it's so cold in your area these days, I think cold and hard grease would likely tend to stop contact and cause trouble.)

If it has "Ford" marking on the timer shell, then it's a Ford timer.

The brass timer shield seems to be missing - it's supposed to keep the felt away from being chewed up by the roller.

There are modern seals that can be used instead of the felt and timer shield. Some repro timer shields has been made with a too small outer diameter, they're supposed to be held tight to the engine by the timer shell.

https://www.modeltford.com/item/3177OS.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Thursday, June 25, 2015 - 04:13 am:

Thanks Roger, went out and turned it over as its only -7 deg C at the moment lol to show the roller. Not sure if that's a mark on the roller or just lube.
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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, June 25, 2015 - 05:35 am:

You've got to put the cars in a garage where it's more comfortable to work with them so they're ready when it gets a little warmer :-)

If the visible spot is a real damage to the surface of the roller, then I think it's time to find another?

It's odd the felt hasn't already been chewed up by the rotating roller - maybe the speedster wasn't driven much after it was finished?

(Message edited by Roger K on June 25, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Thursday, June 25, 2015 - 06:03 am:

Roger both T's ARE in the garage, hopefully its not that cold in there.
I just gave it a wipe and it was just a smudge, all good now. Not sure on the felt washer issue. I believe the previous owner used to rally the car a fair bit but perhaps some work was done in this area just prior to him passing away and it being parked up? I take it the felt washer is to stop engine oil dribbling out? I might just get it going and see how it runs etc and address the seal in a few months. being an open car it wont get much use for a few months anyway.
I'll order one of the neoprene seals you pointed out, I guess the radiator will need to come off to allow access?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, June 25, 2015 - 06:38 am:

I haven't put a neoprene seal on with the engine in the car yet, so I can't tell how hard it is, but pulling the radiator isn't really that much of a job.
But since both the seal and repro original style brass shields are cheap, then you can buy both so if it turns out to be hard to fit the modern seal, then you can put the brass shield there instead since it should be easy enough. Just check so the timer shell really holds it in place - if the shield gets chewed up, you'll get ignition problems.

It may seem odd to seal off oil coming from the cam bearing but add oil to the timer - but the oil you add from your oil can is supposed to be cleaner :-)

Some other timers needs to be oil free, like the popular TW timer with a coal brush. It needs the neoprene seal.
A roller timer may just need more frequent cleaning if it gets too much oil from the engine side just before your 750 miles oil change.

(Message edited by Roger K on June 25, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Thursday, June 25, 2015 - 07:11 am:

Ok sounds a plan, I just ordered some bits and I did order the brass shield as well.
Thanks for your guidance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Thursday, June 25, 2015 - 09:40 am:

Kevin -- You don't need the brass shield if you use a neoprene seal on the cam.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Thursday, June 25, 2015 - 10:18 am:

Those brass shield they sell today are the wrong size and they can slip past the timer and short out the contacts. The shield should be the same size as the outside diameter of the timer and if it is smaller than that don't use it or you will have more trouble than you would without one. With a modern seal you don't need a shield at all and even with the felt if you push it in well enough so the roller does not touch it you can get away without one. I have found original steel shields at flea markets from time to time and use them on all my cars without modern shields.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Thursday, June 25, 2015 - 07:05 pm:

Mike I realize that I just ordered both types to be safe as orders take several weeks to NZ.
Val - Good point, I will check that.
Roger - I put a warm bottle of water on the mat beside the Coupe last night in the garage and its frozen solid this morning, maybe it is that cold in there? It has only got below -20 deg C 5 times in New Zealand since records began in the late 1800's and 3 of those 5 times were here in the last 3 days in a row prior to last night. Power bill might be a bit higher this month lol.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Friday, June 26, 2015 - 12:27 am:

Believe i have installed oil seals without removing the radiator.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Friday, June 26, 2015 - 05:31 am:

Oh really Kep that sounds good. I've seen on another thread that lots of people fill their timers with grease and I wonder if doing this would keep the felt washer in place or perhaps the opposite and spin it out?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Friday, June 26, 2015 - 06:47 am:

The timer contacts look to be covered in black residue. It needs to be cleaned and lubricated well.

The timer cover appears to be the late style made from about 1917 - 1919 so you can easily install the neoprene seal without removing the radiator. I would not use the brass reproduction timer shield, it is unnecessary with the neoprene seal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Friday, June 26, 2015 - 08:25 am:

Thanks Royce, what would you clean it with and would you grease it or oil it?
Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Wetherbee - Downeast Maine on Friday, June 26, 2015 - 12:38 pm:

One time, a friend in our club had washed out his timer and the metallic filings/sludge somehow penetrated thru and ran into the bottom-most post shorting that one cylinder out internally. Talk about a hard to diagnose issue - we thought it was the coil box wood for a while which tends to be another pain in the butt problem to find. Unless you have a wood firewall and you become the ground path when touching the switch...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Friday, June 26, 2015 - 06:20 pm:

Thanks Mark with that in mind perhaps I just wipe with a rag lightly soaked in Meths so not to penetrate any posts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Saturday, June 27, 2015 - 04:36 am:

Cleaned it will Turps on a rag then oiled and refitted.
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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, June 27, 2015 - 09:11 am:

Kevin,

Click here:
http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=331880&post=492947#POST492947


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Saturday, June 27, 2015 - 07:07 pm:

I've read that thread Royce and its very interesting and clearly there is no right or wrong. Yesterday it got a liberal wipe of oil around the contact ring and several drops over the shaft and then the roller & wiped around with my finger before the cap went back on. Using this oil method as a starter approach on my speedster how often should I oil it through the oil tab?
For example - a few drops before I take it out of the garage each time?
- just once every tank of petrol?
- Never, just remove it every so often, wipe clean and re-oil at the time?
Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 09:14 am:

I would say about a teaspoon of oil every time you go for a drive. Too much is going to be better than not enough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 09:35 am:

Really, that much? That is no problem but what happens to that oil, does it drip out onto the floor after you get back?
Engine oil or diff oil?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 10:13 am:

You should pack it with Vaseline, then add engine oil every fill up. I use grease because it is less messy. The thing that destroys timers is lack of lubrication. Yes, the oil drips right out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 07:09 pm:

Thanks Royce good stuff, put kerosene in engine cylinders while hot?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 07:40 am:

Kevin,

When that book was written gasoline quality was horrible. It was common for pistons to develop a thick layer of carbon in a few hundred miles. The kerosene treatment was an attempt to remove the carbon without doing the normal routine of removing the head and scraping off the carbon every thousand miles.

You should not find that necessary with today's fuel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 08:10 am:

Thanks Royce. just got in from the garage and got the speedster running for the first time, very happy as it purrs lovely. Greased everything up and gave it an oil change. Obviously the timer is working correctly.
Thanks for your help


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 10:16 am:


Or you could go with a New Day and use no oil at all. :-)


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