1925 Tudor body number on subframe ??

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: 1925 Tudor body number on subframe ??
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Saturday, June 27, 2015 - 04:21 pm:

While "re-upholstering "the Tudor with burlap coffee bags today , Isaac found a number stamped on the subframe , wondering what it means he said to "ask the guys on the T club" so here they are , HP 20267 stamped on subframe crossmember in front of drivers seat where your feet go .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Saturday, June 27, 2015 - 11:11 pm:

1926 Tudor , sorry .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 07:50 am:

We are 99.99% sure the HP stands for Highland Park. We are still trying to figure out if it means the body was assembled at Highland Park but may have been shipped to a different Branch Plant for assembly onto a chassis or if it means the body was assembled onto the chassis at Highland Park. “IF” they did the same thing that the 1928-1931 Model A Ford assembly plants did, then it would have been assembled at Highland Park. But I have not yet gotten enough information or historical data to know for sure one way or the other. My theory (guess) is that by 1926 it would have been the plant the body was mated to the chassis. But the earlier cars I suspect there were several branches that assembled the closed car bodies and those were shipped to other branches for assembly onto a chassis. But again, I need more data & information to confirm or correct that.

When you have time would you please take a photo of the number along with a ruler or quarter next to the numbers so we can better judge the size in the future. Also a photo that shows the location of the numbers (i.e. taken further away).

For additional background on the assembly plant numbers please see some of the previous postings at:

2012: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/310623.html

2009: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257
/102533.html

2009 : http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/111490.html

And if anyone has additional information about the Assembly Plant numbers please let us know.

It is great to see you have your apprentice in training. The time I spent with my Dad working on Ts and other old cars are memories I still treasure of our time together.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 12:24 pm:

Will do Hap , and thanks !
My apprentice has been all over this project since we started and he is absolutely in love with the car , he's 9 and cannot reach the pedals yet , but I let him steer when we go for our trial runs in the field :-) I'll send pics soon as I get home :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 07:15 pm:

Here's a pic , thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 08:34 pm:

Travis,

Thank you so much for posting the photo. The dime gives us a great reference for the size. Would you please confirm if the arrow in the photo below is pointing towards the front of the car or if it is pointing towards the rear of the car? I cannot easily figure it out from the single cropped picture.



Also, can you give us the date your engine number is listed in the serial number records (Bruce’s (RIP) book “Model T Ford”)? Or can you give us the serial number (feel free to xxxx the last four numbers. ) I’m hoping to someday be able to say that at this assembly plant they used engine numbers in this range with assembly plant numbers in this range. I am not anywhere close to being able to do that yet, but with enough examples someday we may be able to do that.

Again thank you for posting the photo.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 09:12 pm:

Hap , the arrow is facing the rear of the car. My pictures preview ok , the. Rotate after posting ? Engine number is 14408302 .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 08:19 am:

Travis,

Thank you so much for clarifying which direction was towards the front of the car.

I looked at your profile page and you have listed a 1926 roadster pickup and sedan. You also have a photo of a 1926-1927 style Tudor on that page. And the serial number you shared is listed on the Oct 14, 1926 engine assembly listing (ref page 501 & 535 of Bruce McCalley (RIP) “Model T Ford”). Is the photo of the assembly plant number from the Improved Tudor shown on your profile page and also shown below?



And just a note, Bruce has the 1927 model year running from Aug 1926 to May 26, 1927 (ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1927.htm ) and the MTFCI Judging Guidelines 6th edition has Jul 1926 to May 1927 listed. So I think the Tudor is probably a 1927 model year car produced after Oct 14, 1926. Why not on Oct 14, 1926? Good question. When Ford moved all the engine assembly from Highland Park to the River Rouge (see Sep 29, 1924 entry at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc24.htm ), they no longer could just move the engine off the engine assembly line to the chassis assembly line. The engine now had to be shipped – not far – but still loaded onto a truck, rail car, or however they moved them to send it to the Highland Park plant. How long did that take? Well we have two documented examples. One which I believe is more representative of the normal time frame between when the engine was assembled at the River Rouge and when it was installed in a chassis/car at the Highland Park plant. That is engine #12,861,044 which is listed on the engine assembly records under Dec 5, 1925. It is also listed in Accession 94. Walter Fishleigh files as being installed on Dec 12, 1925 (see http://mtfca.com/encyclo/C-D.htm#Chassis1 Dec 12, 1925 – first engine number stamped on frame). That information supports 7 days from engine assembly at the River Rouge to installation in a chassis at the Highland Park plant for that engine. The second documented example that I know of is what I believe was a special case and not the norm. For engine #15,000,000 the engine records listed again on page 536 Bruce’s book, have that engine number assembled and stamped on May 25, 1927. With a note held out for next day. And it is documented that the 15,000,000 Ford was driven off the Highland Park assembly line on May 26, 1927. In that case it took 1 day from engine completion to being placed in the car. But I suspect that engine was not shipped in the normal manner but along with engines 14,999,999 and 15,000,001 were trucked over special for the event.

Again please clarify if the photo is from your Improved Car shown on your profile.

Also if anyone else has some Assembly Plant numbers, please let me know. Keep those Body Numbers and Assembly Plant numbers coming….

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 08:41 am:

Hap , thanks again for all the information , yes the Tudor is the one the body numbers that I gave you are from , it is also the sedan listed on my profile , just picked this up last October it had been off the road since 1952 , my apprentice and I got it running and it's been fun , gotta get back to my roadster pick up this fall , just enjoying time spent with my boys working on the Tudor and field testing :-) so.. It is a 1927 model then ??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 10:07 am:

The engine #14,408,302 would have been considered 1927 model by Ford. Do you have the same # on the top of the frame by the passengers feet? If so, it's the original engine to the car. Other 1927 signs are headlamps mounted directly on a cross brace between the fenders. Wire wheels became standard on closed cars first later on. The car may still have been registered as a '26 by the state since it was likely on the road before calendar 1927. Does the engine still have a vaporizer carb?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 02:38 pm:

No vaporizer It had a rayfield uf on it that I traded to Stan Howe for a Holley nh , I will check the frame numbers tonight when I get home from work and let you know . When did they start putting wire wheels on as standard . This had an AC speedo on wooden spokes but cables were gone , Thanks for the help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 03:10 pm:

According to a december 31,1926 letter from the Chicago branch assembly plant, Tudors got black wires as standard equipment from January 3, 1927. Other assembly plants introduced them slightly earlier or slightly later, but by the spring of 1927 wires were standard on all closed Fords. (source: Bruce's encyclopedia here at this website)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 06:04 pm:

Here's a good one , engine number is 14408302 and frame number is 14408320 , looks like the number guy messed up :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 06:07 pm:

It happens, there have been some really weird VIN and data plate goofs in the Mopar collectible world.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 07:09 pm:

:-) Which one of the # did you get on the title?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 07:18 pm:

The engine number , looking at my roadster pick up numbers now :-) frame numbers on that are barely legible almost unstruck , the frame on that was super nice so don't think they were ever in there hard , engine number on it is 13422487


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 07:25 pm:

Your roadster pickup has a march 25, 1926 engine number, so it would have been called a '26 by Ford. I suppose it doesn't have any brace between the front fenders at the headlights at all? (many got accessory braces, though)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 07:40 pm:

Thank you !! No , it had a factory headlight bar , unfortunately I was intemperate in my youth and disassembled the truck for restoration immediately ( against my fathers advise ) and only have a couple of film pictures of it assembled . Fast forward 20 years marriage and three kids and it's all I can do to remove bad wood from the Tudor top without trying to find some reason to keep it :-) I have every nut and bolt from the roadster Pick up ,( no top when I got it ) and was actually back in the restoration mode for it when I ended up with the Tudor :-) I swear I'm adhd because just a few weeks ago I picked up a 1931 slant window town sedan ( which I'm not starting on until both of my Ts are done ....probably :-) ..)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 10:20 pm:

Travis -- yes, it appears they stamped the frame with all the right numbers just a little off in the order of the numbers. By the way -- thanks for recruiting the next generation of Model T care takers!

Roger -- Bruce has a photo of four different style headlamps used on the 1926 model year cars. Of the 4 styles used only the early 1926 cars came without the tie bar. The last design which was also used on the 1926 model was the same design that was continued into the 1927 USA model year production. Note Bruce mentions that there were other variations in the tie bar used during the 1926 production before they finally settled on the final design. For photos of all 4 styles please see the 1926 section of the headlamps at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/I-O.htm#lamps

Note on page 196 of “The English Ford Book” they comment that for the English Fords, the tie bar for the headlamps was not introduced until May/Jun 1926. So if Travis’ Mar 1926 Ford had been manufactured in England it would not have had the head light tie bar/cross bar. I would guess that some of the other countries that obtained parts from England may have also delayed when they introduced the headlight tie bar/cross bar. If you have some additional information on that, please let us know. A side note – the book also mentions that the roadster pickup was not offered in England (ref page 185-186). So his car would have been a roadster and not the roadster pickup. Do you know if the roadster pickup was offered in other European countries?

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 11:01 pm:

No problem Hap , I'd like to thank you and all of the other VERY helpful people on this forum , without you guys , I'd probably just have a couple old cars in my garage , but now I have a couple old cars that run and one that my boys and I can putz around in while we restore the roadster pick up , the Tudor will eventually be restored as well but we are going to enjoy every second of our time with it ( and each other ) until then :-) even got the wife to go for a spin the other day :-) couldn't have done it without you guys and I'm sure I'll have hundreds and hundreds of questions to ask , so hopefully you guys can put up with me :-) I only wish there were some t folks closer to my area that didn't have to travel too far to get together with me .


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