U joint hole, previous thread, found problem, now how do you fix it?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: U joint hole, previous thread, found problem, now how do you fix it?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 11:56 am:

U joint hole does not line up with the housing hole.

The problem we found is the drive shaft pinion gear pulls the u joint down when tightened.

I had 'short' repo axles and had to buy original. Could this be a short repo shaft?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Bob - 1912 touring, named Chester and referred to as the car the Forum built








(Message edited by adminchris on July 01, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 12:01 pm:

Here are misc. pictures of the shaft and pinion in case it helps you.










(Message edited by adminchris on July 01, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 02:15 pm:

Something on the pinion end doesn't look quite right to me, but it's been a long time since I was into an early rear axle. I do know the pinon HAS to be Tight, tight, tight, or you will have problems--and if too tight, it can split. Don't forget you have to get the gear mesh correct too. Once all that's done, then see what's going on at the U-joint end.
If you are using a modern bearing set-up on the pinion, the bushing flange at the U-joint end serves no purpose (the bushing still is important to keep the shaft centered, just the flange is no longer needed)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 02:36 pm:

looks like this kit was installed;
https://www.modeltford.com/item/2587ADJ.aspx
Maybe you could call Lang's and have them send an email with a copy of the install instructions to make sure yours was done right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 03:35 pm:

I don't remember there being a washer between the pinion gear and the bearing. The bushing at the universal joint controls inward movement of the gear. The thrust bearing controls outward movement along with shims or gaskets at the housing end.
But I am only familiar with the original type bearing with sleeve and roller bearings.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 04:12 pm:

I am not the expert. But I would say that I don't know about that spacer/washer shown over the Woodruff key in one of your photos. It really does boil down to the gear mesh. There should be thrust bearings near the front of the bearing spool. And they may or may not be the right ones. Sometimes, to get proper gear mesh, shims must be used. Once proper gear mesh is established, then you can determine whether the driveshaft needs to be shimmed forward or back or not. Shimming to position the driveshaft is a bit counter-intuitive.
There are three main points of concern for shimming.
Between the pinion gear and the driveshaft, shims are not a good thing. It also generally means that the driveshaft is somehow non-standard or replacement. But sometimes it is the only way to get proper alignment, that or replace the driveshaft with one that fits properly. It is also possible that the non-standard fit is something other than the driveshaft itself. Early parts can be difficult to sort out.
Between the pinion gear and the in-the-front-of-the-spool thrust washers is the most critical fit. This is the one that most holds the pinion gear forward and back to establish proper gear mesh. (The other most important for gear mesh is the thrust washers by the differential.)
The third point is the position of the U-joint relative to the driveshaft and that annoying little pin hole lining up with the holes in the torque tube. This is where it becomes counter-intuitive. You shim the pinion gear back in order to move the driveshaft forward.
The U-joint and the front driveshaft bushing establish a crude thrust limit holding the driveshaft forward. Sometimes the bushing must be faced off a bit to adjust fit. Sometimes a very thin washer is needed to push the U-joint forward.

Originally, even in 1910, Ford was using specifications that should have made all this foolishness unnecessary. But after 100 years, things have happened. Early Ts are a bit more prone to changes due the designs around the pinion bearing and spool.

A caution I sometimes put out there. TT Ton trucks DID NOT use the U-joint for driveshaft positioning thrust. That was all done within the worm drive rear end. At least some trucks used a truck U-joint which is just like the car U-joint except that the thrust facing is not machined off for thrust fit. These U-joints can find their way to causing all kinds of fitting problems. You can guess why I know this.

I do hope some of my rambling can help you some.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 06:27 pm:

I have never seen a washer behind the pinion. I believe the gear goes on tight and the inner d.s. spool sleeve buts tight up against it. Those sleeves can be tight an day even bind up. I use antiseize on that area. It needs to be a good fit. Not to tight,or it will bind , and not too loose,like as in you can pull it off without a puller. If you look at the face of the ball bearing thrust you may see where the sleeve has eorn on the face of it. Most of them are worn. The sleeve, ball bearing thrust, and back of the pinion need to be in good shape in order to get the front end if the d.s. to fit right. I have seen a washer who's I.D. is bigger than the sleeve and the O.D. is smaller than the retainer on the ball bearing. That washer goes on the ball bearing end of the roller bearing. It is about 1/16" thick. I think the idea was to keep the roller bearing from being chewed up by the ball bearing retainer. Watch that the pinion bearing key does not protrude above the sleeve and catch you roller bearing. I have heard of some using a later d.s. ball bearing in an early enclosed bolt spool. I would not do that. I think you need that to be held tight and nt flopping around as that would do on the O.D. the ball bearing cup needs to be flush with the end of the spool. If there is a gap between the outer sleeve and the front edge of that ball bearing cup you need to check the fit of your outer sleeve or see if the edge of the cup is worn. You need good parts without wear. They are around because a lot of people go to the modern design now available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 07:58 pm:

Fellows, I too am mystified by that thick washer with the relief for the pinion key. If it belongs there, its effect will be to push the bearings forward into the spool. If that can't happen because of the set-up, then the tailshaft will be drawn further back, causing Robert's problem with pin out of whack at the front. But then the pinion mesh should be way too deep.

Perhaps we need an exploded drawing of the pinion bearing set-up. I can't recall just how mine went together, but there were no problems like this.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 08:35 pm:

Bob -- I agree with the others that the washer with the notch for the Woodruff key is not normal. You might try putting everything together without it and see how things fit. Another question mark is the "Mark Auto" pinion gear. Some of those were made with the key notch in the wrong location and they were prone to breakage as a result. Your pic showing the pinion gear doesn't show the keyway location, so please post another pic showing that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 08:51 pm:

WOAH here! This man is installing an ADJUSTABLE version of the pinion bearing kit and it has shims supplied and a single thickest shim puts the gear in STOCK position. More shims can be added or the thickest shim not used and other shims stacked up to comprise a slightly slimmer stack.

(Message edited by piewagon on June 28, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 09:08 pm:

Whoever put it in years ago during the start of the restoration appeared to put in the Adjustable modern drive shaft assembly as per Lang's catalogue suggested above.

I will call Lang's and see if they can offer some help. I do appreciate all of yours!

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 09:21 pm:

Bob -- The adjustable kit Lang's sells is the one John Regan makes. I recommend that you ask him for more info.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Evan in Paso Robles on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 10:23 pm:

Hello Bob,

Have you had the drive shaft out of the torque tube? Is there a threaded area with two jam nuts on the engine side of the spool on the drive shaft? Am I seeing tapered bearings in the spool? If the answer to these questions is yes then you probably do not need the u-joint pin. This would also explain the washer under the pinion gear to set the gear mesh. You have the pinion on one side against the tapered bearing and the two large jam nuts on the other side against the other taper bearing and therefore the drive shaft is now captive.

Evan in Paso


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 10:37 pm:

Evan:

I don't think this is the "Rite Way" bearing that has the 2 opposing tapered bearings. There is NO double nut setup in any of our pinion bearing kits. It looks like our adjustable pinion bearing which has only a single tapered bearing with the other bearing being different and sealed but I can't be totally positive from just looking at the pictures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 11:17 pm:

Robert,
I hate to say this, but you have to ignore all the posts talking about the Ford assembly, as you have what appears to be a John Regan pinon bearing set up, which is quite different from the Ford system. Regan's assembly uses a taper roller bearing and a sealed bearing with a "locking ring" that clamps on the drive-shaft forward of the sealed bearing. This sets the preload and positions both the pinion gear and the drive shaft. The front bearing at the U joint end is only used to center the drive shaft in the housing, and has nothing to do with the pinion bearing location.
I'm fairly certain the keyed washer is to be put between the pinion gear and the nut, if needed to line up the cotter pin holes.
Get John's instructions and start over!
And, as has been noted, make certain you don't have the bad MARK pinion gear with the keyway in the wrong location.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Sunday, June 28, 2015 - 11:40 pm:

Is there a problem with doing it like Ford says? If so, the only problem could be you haven't faced enough off of the front drive shaft bushing. That is the only thing it could be. The trouble with many folks in this and other clubs, is they try to change everything. Ford didn't have a problem, and neither do I. Do it the way the Ford Service Book says to!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 01:22 pm:

It really shouldn't matter what bearing you use. If the pinion is meshed properly, it's position relative everything else is fixed. Either your driveshaft is too short, the pin hole is drilled in the wrong place, your torque tube is too long (improperly modified from a 1 pc. tube), or your removable ball is "home made", with the access hole located wrong. I would compare each of these items to known originals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 08:09 pm:

Jerry, a modified torque tube has been behind my thoughts all along.I asked Robert to post a photo of the two front castings to check on this, but to no avail. That ball does not look right either.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 08:39 pm:

The U-joint position is determined by the thrust surface on the front driveshaft bushing that sits in the torque tube. You can face it as Larry writes above, or try assembly and drive as it is - the modern bearing will likely hold the driveshaft in position without any pin for the u-joint.

Ok, I know John Regan recommends the u-joint pin to always be there as an extra safety, but should the lock ring holding his bearing fail for some reason, then the driveshaft will only have a small distance to travel until the ring gear stops any further movement rearwards? The noise will likely call for immediate check up before any real harm is done.

Just remember to torque the pinion good, like minimum 80 lb ft.

With the u-joint pushed a bit forward of the ideal position there is another risk it won't be in the exact center of the ball when the rear axle assembly movement up and down with the spring action - but the actual movement isn't that many degrees, so I doubt there's much risk for binding?

It's easy to check with the rear axle assembly mounted to the car but without the rear spring, then move it up and down where it would would move while driving and check so it moves freely.

But it's even easier to just face the bushing :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, June 30, 2015 - 12:36 am:

Roger, it doesn't matter how much you face off the tailshaft bush, it will not move the hole in the tailshaft forward so it will line up with the holes in the housing. If the gear mesh is correct, either the tailshaft is short, or the torque tube/ball is too long. Looking at the machining around the ball, I suspect there is something going on there, but it is difficult to tell without seeing the whole front end of the tube.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, June 30, 2015 - 06:26 am:

You're right Allan - with the bushing faced it wouldn't be possible to put the pin in, and the center line where the u-joint swivels and the torque tube ball turns would certainly be mismatched.

I still think it's possible to drive it as is without the pin. But testing the rear axle assembly in place first without the spring may tell if the u-joint functions properly without binding.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Tuesday, June 30, 2015 - 09:46 pm:

I took the shaft out of the tube and am reassembling the John Regans Adjustable assembly.

With work and such I am not always able to work on the car and get pictures to you in a timely manner. I will send pictures another day. Thanks for all your help.

Not out of the woods yet!
Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, June 30, 2015 - 10:05 pm:

A simple answer to whether or not to use the pin, the pin keeps the u-joint center in relation to the housings. Without the pin it will float back and forth in and out of the center line of the housings, wearing both the drive shaft and hole in the output shaft. While the whole system operates at fixed arc range most all u-joints are fixed at one end but may also have a sliding shaft at one end. The Model T drive line was designed with the U-joint fixed at the one side to maintain the proper arc and center.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, July 01, 2015 - 05:02 pm:

Mark G.,

You are 100% correct!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Wednesday, July 01, 2015 - 08:28 pm:

Are these pictures any help?

I am going to basically put the shaft back in with two different thick washers so the pinion meshes with the ring better.

I can't see that rectifying the problem.

As someone said, since I have a Mark pinion, do I need a new pinion?

Thanks Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chester Leighton on Wednesday, July 01, 2015 - 08:31 pm:

I have the same problem. I compared the new shaft from Langs with the original shaft and found the hole for the U-joint pin was drilled in the wrong place. I put a temporary pin in to set things up, then removed the pinion gear, slid the drive shaft forward and installed the permanent pin and reassembled the shaft into the housing. Then reinstalled the pinion on the shaft and torqued the nut to 80 lbft. I am having difficulty with the collar on the new bearing set up keeping the shaft from going into the diff. when braking. My collar is smooth with only the pinch bolt to tighten things up. I have thought about installing a set screw but am afraid this will cause a stress riser where the screw digs into the shaft and end up with a cracked drive shaft. Any one got any suggestions?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, July 01, 2015 - 09:31 pm:

If you choose to use the correct parts for your driveshaft, there is a roller bearing distance plate that is used in the front of the ball bearing assembly. It will slip over the driveshaft inner roller bearing sleeve. The ball bearing is a slight interference fit in the roller bearing housing. Next, there is no reason for you to assemble the driveshaft the way you are doing it! Assemble all of the parts to the driveshaft, and cotter pin the pinion nut. Then, shove it into the torque tube. You can easily see the amount that needs to be removed from your front bushing at that time. The two piece torque tube makes adjusting the U-Joint so much easier than the late ones. I wonder sometimes, why Ford ever went to the later style?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, July 01, 2015 - 11:04 pm:

Appears to be the new shaft is the issue. Some must have a Ford drawing for the drive shaft, wish the vendor making the shafts had it!

Same experience with me.



New repro drive shaft on left, original on right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Leon Parker - Benton, Kentucky on Thursday, July 02, 2015 - 01:05 pm:

Dan, are the length of the repo. drive shafts correct?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, July 02, 2015 - 01:25 pm:

If everything else is fitted correctly the u-joint pin in my view is unnecessary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, July 02, 2015 - 01:48 pm:

Maybe it's just me, but I also don't like the square cuts on the end of the shaft, I would radius them out to eliminate any possibility of a stress riser.
Any other opinions?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell, Huntsville, AL on Thursday, July 02, 2015 - 04:28 pm:

If you are using the Reagan unit, you don't need to pin the U-Joint. Also all washers go behind the pinion gear to achieve the correct mesh. Per John's instructions, you start with the thickest, and add thinner washers to achieve the correct lash. Once the assembly is locked down by the collar, the drive shaft can't move fore or aft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, July 02, 2015 - 04:39 pm:

John Z,

"Once the assembly is locked down by the collar, the drive shaft can't move fore or aft."

Correct. But the U-Joint CAN. Regan tells you to use the pin. Why would you trust him to make the bearing unit, and write the excellent instructions, only to then ignore that one last detail?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell, Huntsville, AL on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 10:04 am:

Jerry, I just read the instructions again. I stand corrected. thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 12:59 pm:

The fit of the U Joint to the shaft is imprecise. Without the rivet you will have problems eventually. There's no case for not spending the thirty seconds it requires to install the rivet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, July 04, 2015 - 12:11 am:

Chester:

Something in your statement about the shaft collar moving makes no sense to me. First off the shaft collar we use has a side thrust load testing at 2600 lbs assuming the drive shaft is 1.000" and smooth. We clamp test them on precision shaft and push them with a press to make sure. That being said that shaft collar only carries the vector weight (it is installed at an angle) of the shaft itself and parts fastened to it or simply something less than the weight of the drive shaft mounted parts. Thus NOTHING should be pushing that collar up the shaft. Since the T rear end is a straight bevel gear then the thrust under engine power or under transmission braking is always in the same direction namely that the ring gear is trying to spit the pinion gear up the drive shaft housing. You stated that the collar was slipping under braking and that the drive shaft was being pulled downward at that time - how? If the collar was not set up as per the instructions and there was end play between it and the bearing then you could have movement and I suppose if you had enough movement you could make the drive shaft into a battering ram but it would not be easy to move that collar since we have put more than its rated load against it in tests and it didn't move. Now if your shaft is worn badly at the location where the collar sits and/or not a true 1.000 diameter then that collar will not grip the shaft. If you drill holes in the collar and add set screws then you will in fact lessen the holding power since the collar depends on surface area and pressure and you will be using the set screw to pry the inner surface away from the shaft and replacing it with a small round spot. Check the side thrust rating on regular set screw collars and you will see they are less than single split collars. I simply don't know how or why the collar is moving but suggest you need to look carefully at what is pushing on it. The only thing I have heard and that did push a collar away was one of the new ujoints which did not fit into the back of the motor since the square shank was oversize and jammed which pushed the entire drive shaft backwards as the fellow drew the ball into the transmission rear end by using longer bolts. Likely a disaster for all parts involved.

Perhaps I don't understand what you were saying was happening but did wonder if perhaps you were having that same issue of ujoint not fitting smoothly and easily into motor.

The picture of the 2 drive shaft ends is not meaningful since the shaft length isn't critical but the placement of the ujoint pin IS critical. The location of that pin is measured from the edge formed by the pinion taper and the 1.000 diameter shaft machined land. Thus the correct length of the pin hole distance is a long dimension of 51.250 +/- .005 in length thus rather critical. Think about it - the length to the pin hole MUST be held to a dimension that starts at the pinion gear end. The problem is that the maker for awhile would seem to have measured the short end distance from some T shaft rather than buying the drawing and you could very easily get the wrong distance by taking any dimensions between 2 shafts using the short end where the ujoint hole is.

The ujoint must not float - pin it but at the correct location.


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