Lets talk about those side lights.
Do you think that they are factory issue?
I think you're right Jay. That must be The Lone Ranger and Tonto after Silver died!!
As a mechanic I cringe at the thought of all the dirt going into the carb. Great pic. and caption as always Jay.
...and their first born was called "Dusty"...
On the way to....Branson.....or Calgary?
If its The Lone Ranger and Tonto, then who's that behind the driver? Cisco?
Those are the correct three tier E&J lamps used in 1909. The car is a true 1909 model year car. Great photo that I have never seen previously! Maybe still photo of Pancho Villa from the 1914 movie?
Looks like it has snubbers on the front axle.
That's a GREAT action shot for the time period! Thanks for posting.
if you drive like that you will need snubbers on your t also!!!!!!!!!!!!! is it a wide track car????? frt fenders look wide to me. charley
Those covers look military to me. Anyone recognize them ?
What's on the hood?
Burger is talking about their hat's.
Poncho Via... running from the troops
I wonder how long/far old Lizzie ran in that deep sand before she boiled?? Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
We had a guy in the San Diego club who also owned a Dodge touring, claimed it was owned by Poncho Via. I wonder where it is now?
Pancho Villa was killed in a 1920 - ish Dodge touring. The car he was assassinated in is in the Pancho Villa museum in Chihuahua Mexico. it is riddled with .30 and .50 caliber bullet holes.
When General Pershing invaded Mexico in 1915 he had a fleet of 1915 Dodge tourings, Indian motorcycles, and a few Curtiss aircraft. Villa was impressed by the Dodge tourings and was frequently photographed later in his life riding in Dodge cars. He is photographed here with a captured US Army issue 1915 Indian.
George S. Patton became a national celebrity during the 1915 Mexico invasion campaign, made famous for shooting two of Villa's men while sitting in the back seat of a 1915 Dodge touring. At the time Patton was a 2nd LT. Patton carried the ivory handled Colt single action revolver with two notches in the handle for much of his military career.
well is it a wide track or not?????????? charley
Here is a normal 1909 in the dealer showroom.
It sure looks like a wide track in the original photo Charley.
There is definitely something odd about the front axle in the photograph. Whether it is the axle, or the photograph, I haven't been able to decide (hence my not weighing in before now).
I generally have always had a very good "eye" for angles, ratios, and related fits. It has not been so good in recent years as my farsightedness has required more and more correction. My glasses add distortion that I have more trouble compensating for. To my "eye", through my new glasses, the car does appear to be a wide-track. HOWEVER, the size of the part of the axle outside the spring perches is the usual. It is the length of the axle between the spring perches that appears to be extra long. AS FAR AS I KNOW, all Ford wide-track axles as supplied by the factory originally were made longer on the outer areas. But that front spring itself looks to be several inches wider than usual. Would it be possible that an early special order could have had a custom axle made? It would be easiest to custom make an axle by either stretching the middle or welding parts of two forged axles together in the middle. One would also then have to make special wide spring. That would have been the easy part. At that time, springs were commonly being custom made for the local wagon and carriage trade.
Unfortunately, I lack the computer skills to do a decent comparative overlay of the axle in that photo with a known standard and a known wide-track axles. Anyone care to tackle it?
It is a wonderful photo of a very early T! Thank you Jay for posting it. And thank you Royce for posting the other photos! (I like the N with the radiator off also!)
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
the top of the fender looks to extra wide and look at the space between the fender brace and the fender.charley
Thanks for the Villa photos Royce.
I never noticed the Dodge touring didn't have hood louvers.
I think you're spot on with the year too because it doesn't yet have the drum headlights.
Years ago, I went to the car show on Petit Jean Mountain in Arkansas. There was a man who had a Dodge touring that he claimed was General Pattons Dodge Touring. Patton was supposed to have been ambushed while in the Dodge and the radiator was shot full of holes. The car was on display with the radiator full of holes. His story was that the car was abandoned and some private stationed in the desert with Patton had the car shipped by train back to Hot Springs Arkansas where the private lived. The car sat in storage for years and sometime in the 1980s (I think the 80s is correct) The owner who had it at the car show bought it from the estate of the family in Hot Springs. He had lots of info and documentation so I fully believed his story. Then just a few months later there was an ad in the Vintage Ford wanting to buy a model T ambulance or other military vehicles for display in the new museum they were building to honor the veterans of the war. It was to be jointly built by the US and Mexico. So I called them up and asked the guy if they would be interested in a Dodge Touring that was Pattons car he almost got killed in. He quickly told me they already had a Dodge touring "like" the one that Patton had. I quickly said no not "like" the car he had but "The" car he had and was in. I thought the guy on the other end of the phone had died ... I think he quit breathing. After he regained his breathing ability I told him the story of the car and I really believed it to be true. I gave him the contact info for the Museum of Automobiles that had the car show where I saw the car, and they contacted the owner in Hot Springs. I heard it took almost a year of negotiations for the war museum to buy the car, but it now sits in the war museum. I have often wondered what it cost them to buy it ... I hope to someday be able to go to the museum and see the car again ... But it is strange how things can come together. Me seeing the car at the show, Me being interested enough to really have a good discussion with the owner, and then seeing the ad in Vintage Ford.
(Message edited by dobro1956 on July 11, 2015)
(Message edited by dobro1956 on July 11, 2015)
I think the car you might have seen is the one in the Pancho Villa Museum in New Mexico. That car is a 1915 Dodge that was shot up when Villa's troops invaded Columbus New Mexico. An American officer was killed in it. The officer's family kept the car until the 1970s and then donated or sold it to a museum. It was left outside for decades so it is in poor condition. This particular car was a US Army issue 1915 Dodge, but had no association with Patton, who was not in New Mexico or old Mexico since the war had not started yet.
Royce, The car that I saw was a complete car. It was painted and had interior, top ect. He had what was supposed to be the original radiator (with bullet holes) as part of his display of pictures and other info about the car and how it was shipped to Hot Springs. The car was on display with the radiator sitting on a stand in front of the car. It has been a long time ago, so I am foggy as to the details of the story. I am wondering if it is the car Poncho was killed in. It does not fit the story that I remember hearing and reading about at the car show. But maybe the car show owner had some things wrong.??? That car is what I remember it looking like. I also believe I was wrong about the car being linked to Patton. After trying to remember the details better ,and my wife remembering some things, (she was there and her memory is better than mine) (but I will deny I ever said that if you tell her) I believe it was supposed to have been General Pershings car, not Pattons. Do you know if there is a Dodge Touring at the museum that was Pershings car... Like I said, It has been a long time ago, and my old timers brain does not work as good as it used to. Thanks for all the pics ...
Going back on topic, it is Not a wide-track. Check the head-on photo Kim posted in the Ben Snyders #220 thread, measure the width of the radiator and you will find it equal to the distance from rad to the wheel. Do the same with this photo. If it were a wide-track, that rad to wheel distance would be greater than the rad width. And don't the cars look similar? 3 tier lamps, flat front fenders etc.
The 1909 Ford photo that Jay found was posted on The Old Motor today to try to see if more could be found out about the image. A very through researcher and friend Ariejan Bos commented on the photo and had this to say about it:
"I would be very much surprised, if these men were Mexicans. The head wear looks more like normal automobilist caps than like the hats belonging to Mexican generals. Anyway, the photo appeared also in ‘The Model T’ by Robert Casey and in the book it is stated, that the photo comes from the collections of The Henry Ford Museum. I couldn’t find an original source, but I suppose it was a publicity photo and was possibly published in Ford Times."
If any positive ID of the photo is found by the readers, I will let all of you know. What a GREAT photo.
All that dust and dirt,Didn't that engine have an exposed valve/lifter system.... What a mess that would make!