Something rubbing in reverse

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Something rubbing in reverse
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Thursday, July 09, 2015 - 09:38 pm:

My newly aquired '14 touring has developed an interesting problem. When I engage the reverse pedal and there is almost any load (like backing over the small threshold in my barn) something starts to sound like it is rubbing and if I engage harder, It rubs harder and can stall the engine.

The noise sounds like the face of something spinning hitting something stationary and augering in a little. It is far from a comforting sound...

I also noticed that the brake band can slow the engine when the car is stopped. I would think that the engine would not care if the brake band was engaged or not if the car was stopped. It is not a big load, but it makes a noise and the engine slows.

Any ideas? It does not sound good to me...

Thanks!
-Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, July 10, 2015 - 03:49 am:

Do you know anything about the repair/restoration history of the car?
Maybe the transmission was amateur restored and is a bit tight between the clutch and brake drum where the three shims are?
When the brake band is contracted, the brake drum is moved slightly by the force from the band. Even if it didn't rotate before, the slight movement sideways may make it even tighter between the free rotating clutch hub and the stationary brake drum?

The rubbing sound in reverse might be from the triple gears rubbing on the flywheel? If so, it's the flange of the bushings on the triple gears that isn't high enough to stop them from rubbing. Reverse might tilt them more than when they work in low?

All this is speculation only, more info needed.
A first check would be to open the transmission inspection lid and check what it looks like in there. Feel if the play in the triple gears seems normal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Friday, July 10, 2015 - 08:19 am:

The car was restored very nicely in the early nineties (to the point it won an aaca grand national award) however neither if the two previous owners drove it very much. My plan is to use it, so I am still sorting out a lot of basic things that were not discovered by the previous owners.

My fear is that the noise is in fact the triple gear hitting the flywheel. It sounds like what I would imagine that to sound like. Why it only does it in reverse I do not understand, but it may be due to axial movement under load.

I will take the cover off this weekend and look around, but I am not sure what the right amount of play is...

Thanks,
Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, July 10, 2015 - 08:32 am:

Does the car have a good, free neutral? Maybe the high gear clutch isn't fully disengaged. Check your linkage per the article below:

neutral01

neutral02


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Friday, July 10, 2015 - 09:29 am:

Joe, hate to think this, but that might be the very reason the previous owners didn't drive it very much. They knew there was a problem, but didn't want to tackle it due to time and more importantly, expense. Just a thought. It does sound like the transmission needs an overhaul.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, July 10, 2015 - 12:30 pm:

This sounds to me like the drums are out of alignment with the bands. when you depress the reverse pedal the band catches the edge of the low drum. And when you depress the brake while the car is not moving it too catches the edge of the low drum. You might take off the inspection plate to see how how it looks. If all bushings are worn, the drums could be moving back and forth on the shaft. The worst case could be a cracked drum. If it is a cracked drum, it could lead to the big bang and the car come to a screeching stop. See attachment.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Friday, July 10, 2015 - 02:16 pm:

When I purchased the car, it was very hard to start and that was the reason the previous owner said he wanted to sell as he hurt his arm in an accident and really could not start the car himself.

The hard starting was due in part to coil problems, but mostly due to a lack of free neutral. I adjusted the low pedal and the short linkage rod per the picture above,and I had a relatively free neutral. Unfortunately the low pedal would stick down in low so I tightened that band a little. That ended up with a pedal that did not stick, but a less free neutral. I checked the low pedal cam and it is turned barely halfway before it got tight.


It did not make the noise prior to my adjustments, but also did not make the noise immediately after. I have been driving it a bit and it just started.

My adjustments were basically loosening the low speed band a few turns, tightening the little linkage several turns, tightening the reverse and brake bands 2 turns.

I am hopeful it is just an adjustment, but the noise sounds a lot like a spinning gear hitting a stationary surface with its face so I am not hopeful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, July 10, 2015 - 03:41 pm:

You might also look at fabricating a longer link from the low pedal, see this earlier thread by Royce on the subject:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/478111.html?1410398567


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Holland, Utah on Friday, July 10, 2015 - 03:48 pm:

With the transmission door off and the engine not running press on the reverse pedal and watch it's travel. Does it slip over to one of the other drums? Just a thought. Otherwise those that said it was triple gear problem may be right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Friday, July 10, 2015 - 05:58 pm:

I will take a look at it all tomorrow and post back.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Saturday, July 11, 2015 - 03:48 pm:

I peaked under the trans inspection cover and am even more confused since I could not find much wrong.

I did notice the very edge of the brake bad touches the edge of the low drum. I think that explains why I get a slight load on the engine with the brake band engaged. The overlap is slight and is more of the lining overlapping than the band. I did not see a way to adjust it, and it doesn't put any significant load on the engine.

I could rotate all three triple gears back and forth on the teeth, but the amount did vary. One set had a decent amount of play, one had very little (So little I originally thought it was stuck until I concentrated and realized I could rock it back and forth a little) and the other was somewhere in between.

The gears all had clearance to the flywheel and did not seem to have any axial play with the forces my hand could generate. I could not see even a scratch on the flywheel, but I will look some more with better light later.

Since it only makes the noise with load in reverse, I figured I would chock the wheel, start the engine, and engage the reverse band with the cover off. There was a waterfall of oil once the engine was running. :-) Since the vast majority was staying in the trans I tried to execute my plan, but couldn't see anything with the oil flowing.

I am starting to suspect the rear end thrust washer. (The car was restored in the early 90's and may not have had a brass part installed)
Maybe the rear end gears are jumping around and that is the clatter I hear. But why only in reverse? I started thinking and there is also a short clatter noise just as the car comes to a full stop. Is there a way to check the rear end thrust washer type without full disassembly? I have a friend with a borescope, but I don't know where to look... Do any of my symptoms line up with a bad thrust washer, or am I getting desperate?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, July 11, 2015 - 04:08 pm:

Since it looks OK, I would suggest that you put the cover back on, and fill the oil to the top petcock and drive the car around. See if the noise gets worse or stays about the same.

When you are in reverse, the gears especially those in the rear axle run on the back side of the teeth. It is quite common for the reverse to be noisier than the other gears. Noise in the rear axle sometimes sounds like it is in the transmission.

Also check your rear axle for end play by jacking up both sides and pull in and out on each axle. There should not be noticeable endplay. If you notice a lot of endplay the rear axle should be removed and checked for babbit thrust washers. If it has babbit, they should be replaced with bronze.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, July 11, 2015 - 04:12 pm:

That clatter noise is the ring gear hopping over the pinion gear when you apply the brake. Very scary sound!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Saturday, July 11, 2015 - 05:37 pm:

If the rear axle checks out to be perfectly fine you may be hearing band chatter? This sort of question has been posed in the past with lots of "Your car is worn out" style responses, only to find out that it was normal band chatter making the noise.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, July 11, 2015 - 06:06 pm:

Here is one thing not addressed. When you start out using low or reverse the engine should be as slow as possible without killing the engine. Then fully depress the pedal and control your speed with the throttle lever. What you are hearing might be the band slipping on the drum. You described it as "something spinning hitting something stationary". That is exactly what happens if you slip the band. Find a place where it is safe to practice backing up and try it depressing the pedal hard. You will probably not hear that sound unless the band needs adjusting. The band should be fully compressed with the pedal about 1 1/2 inch above the floorboard. It should not be too tight nor too loose.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Saturday, July 11, 2015 - 06:25 pm:

I will check the axle tomorrow. If it is ok I will play more with my technique.

It did not behave this way when I first got it. If I push the reverse pedal harder the noise is louder and then the car stalls. But maybe it is chatter cause I think it stops once the band is engaged... I will play tomorrow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, July 11, 2015 - 07:36 pm:

Joe.......check to see if the low pedal is simply moving on the shaft due to an elongated pin hole in the pedal, shaft or both.
It takes VERY little lost motion at the shaft to make a huge difference upstairs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Sunday, July 12, 2015 - 01:29 pm:

I checked the rear end this morning. One side had almost no play. Enough that I could hear it clunk in and out, but not really enough to see. The other side was looser, probably about a sixteenth of an inch of play. Doesn't seem like enough to skip teeth... Maybe it is just band chatter, but the noise is bad in reverse... I will get it back together and see again, maybe make a video with sound...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Thursday, July 16, 2015 - 09:40 pm:

I have played and played with my driving technique and am starting to believe it could be band chatter... It only happens when engaging reverse with a load. I don't really press the reverse band very hard when trying to slowly back into the barn which is when I hear it most. Perhaps the stalling was me running the engine too slow? It was barely off idle as I was trying to back into barn slowly.

I tried reverse on flat ground and stomped the pedal harder and it was fine once it got going.

A similar noise seems to happen right as the car comes to a stop with the brake band. It is quiet all the way down to zero speed, than just as it stops, it clunks and the car rocks back and forth a little. Could that be the brake band winding up under braking and then there is some slop somewhere and it is bouncing in the slop just as it stops and the load goes away. Is that band chatter?

I am going to have my wife hold the brake band down hard with engine off and see if I can move the car back and forth a little. As I type this, I am wondering if could be a U joint...

Still having fun, just wish I knew more about T's...

I changed the rubber hose for the acetylene lights today. Seems I bought too much. (I have enough to do another car if anyone nearby Milford MI needs some free acetylene light hose, let me know.

-Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 11:33 am:

If you have a Ruckstell, you can use low range while reversing. The car will go slower and you can control the speed easier than when in high range. I would suggest that when you back into the barn, you push the pedal down hard to get it rolling and then raise your foot off the pedal and let it coast into place. Or go into the barn forward and back out. Anyway, if it is chatter, it is not a big problem especially if it is only in reverse. Have fun with your T.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 04:20 pm:

The axle moving in and out indicates a missing fiber disc between the axles. It won't tell you for sure whether you have a shot pinion bearing, or worn out ring / pinion gear. I've never heard of a brake band chattering.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 06:46 pm:

The brake band is quiet when I first engage it, and stays quiet until the car stops. Right as the car comes to a complete stop, there is a clunk and the car kinda bounces backwards, then it is quiet again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Saturday, July 18, 2015 - 05:39 am:

It is not uncommon for a T to have a little bouncing back and forth when the brake is fully depressed. With the backlash between the axle gears and the differential and the backlash between the ring and pinion, and any torsion in that long skinny drive shaft, it can all add up.


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