First Drive on Road, BUT..Exhaust pipe got RED HOT

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: First Drive on Road, BUT..Exhaust pipe got RED HOT
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Sunday, July 12, 2015 - 05:18 am:

First of all, car is... 1925 Fordor, Stock engine, but was told it was rebuilt, has NEW: Rocky Mountain Brakes, Brassworks Radiator, waterpump, rebuilt NH Carb, Ruckstell Rear, Floating rear hubs, Trans oiler/screen with magnet, KW Coils, ( 1 rebuilt),new exhaust and muffler, and E-Timer, to mention a few important parts.

Took it on drive for first time today, for about 10 or so miles round trip.

As I was driving, I noticed down by my right foot, a Reddish Glow, coming from the exhaust pipe, below the exhaust pack nut! Pulled over as soon as I could and by that time, it was RED HOT. Stopped and Let it cool down, then drove again, it started to get Red Hot again, turned around and let it cool again, and started back home, did it again, and stopped again, then made it back home. Looks like the exhaust manifold didn't seem to get red hot, just the exhaust pipe, about 3 to 5 inches, from the nut, but not 100% sure.

Seemed to run fine But, I just felt like it might have been sluggish/dragging? I don't know, as this was my first time to drive the "T" also, so a few things could be wrong, including operator error. I actually shifted pretty good, considering, I've only practiced in my front yard. The car didn't overheat and ran nice and cool, as it was about 70 degrees, in a cool canyon.

Questions 1: any ideas and what to check? My first thought adjust brakes and/or bands? Engine starts right up, and runs smooth after, retard lever adjusted.

Question 2: This may sound silly, but does the Ruckstell have a neutral position? What I have seen and read, it looks like a no to this answer, it looks like until the shifter is shifted, forwards or backwards, it is not in Ruckstell, High OR Low.

Thanks for your input, and Please be gentle with me, I'm trying to learn as I go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, July 12, 2015 - 05:58 am:

Timing is too retarded. You'll get peppier performance too as soon as you adjust the timing - or pull the lever down more when the engine is started.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, July 12, 2015 - 07:20 am:

Try rebuilding those other 3 coils.

I have noticed that the red hot part of the exhaust manifold may be nearer to the front or in the middle.

My unproven theory is that the real cause is the fact that those coils often have random mis-fires and when that happens, some raw gas is dumped into the exhaust manifold and lit off by the next cylinder to fire.

In this case cylinder #4 would be likely to be the one having the most mis-fires, perhaps aided by cylinder #3.

Those coil mis-fires are easily noticed on a Hand Crank Coil Tester or StroboSpark.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, July 12, 2015 - 07:23 am:

And the answer to your #2 question should be no - no neutral in a Ruckstell from the factory, but who knows what has happened in 90 years, maybe an earlier owner filed a notch to get a neutral - or maybe it's worn to the point it risks getting out of gear? All T's with accessory transmissions needs accessory wheel brakes for safety.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Sunday, July 12, 2015 - 07:52 am:

The other possible cause of a hot exhaust besides timing, is an overly rich condition. It may run alright, but the mixture adjustment may be too rich causing the fuel to burn in the manifold/pipe.

It is possible it is to lean also, and have a similar result, but then it usually runs crappy at that point.

Remember, if it is hot enough to turn the thin pipe red, then that thicker manifold that is prone to warping is just as hot.

I suggest turning the mixture needle in until lightly seated, then turn out 1 1/2 turns. Start the car, and turn in the screw a 1/8 at a time, stand back and listen before turning again. You should hear the engine pickup speed at some point. Keep turning until you hear the engine fall off in rpm a little bit--then turn it back out until it picks back up at the highest rpm. That is the sweet spot for idle--most likely you will end up at about 1 - 1 1/8 turn out from seated when done.

You will probably have to open it more going down the road at speed, but the adjustment should not vary a lot. A lot of people when starting open the mixture a 1/4 turn to get started and once warmed up turn it back in that 1/4 turn. Some people just set it and forget it and never touch the adjustment even going down the road---my T doodlebug is this way (I actually set it about 1/16 to 1/8 turn richer than the highest rpm at idle).

Every car is different, so it pays to experiment with the mixture and the timing, because there is no one setting fits all.

Here is a pic of suggested throttle and timing situations for different driving situations.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, July 12, 2015 - 10:20 am:

An item that caught my eye in your list of features is the water pump. That's often a bandage slapped on a T with a cooling problem. Fifteen million Model T's came from the factory without one because it wasn't needed. But your list also includes a Brassworks radiator, so in this case the heat is more likely from one of the sources the other guys have mentioned.

One other possibility: "Stock engine, but was told it was rebuilt..." Rebuilt is one of those highly elastic terms like value and restored which mean many different things to many different people. I wonder if rebuilt in this case included a thorough cleaning of the engine water passages. If they weren't properly cleaned, that could cause at least a part of your extra heat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, July 12, 2015 - 11:02 am:

A rebuilt engine will run hotter until it is run for a few hundred miles. However, a retarded spark or lean fuel mixture will also cause it to run hot. The red hot manifold would be an indicator to me of retarded spark. The fuel doesn't completely burn by the time the exhaust valves open so it burns in the manifold.

I don't know anything about an e-timer, but that might be your problem.

You need to find someone in your area who is familiar with Model T's to drive it and help you check it out. The fordor sedan is the heaviest Model T so it would seem a bit more sluggish to drive than a lighter one such as a Roadster. I can even tell the difference between my Roadster and my Touring. I can also feel the difference when other passengers ride with me.

Does the engine seem to run smoothly, or feel like it's misfiring? If misfiring, check plugs and coils. If it's not misfiring, I would strongly suspect either or a combination of retarded spark and lean fuel mixture. Since I don't know about the e-timer I can't give any advice on how to advance the spark. Perhaps someone who has an e-timer can help in that area.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Robison on Sunday, July 12, 2015 - 01:46 pm:

Red Hot exhaust pipe is normal, no need for concern. When run hard they will heat red from #2 exhaust port, to the bend in the exhaust pipe. Sounds like you're having fun. keep at it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, July 12, 2015 - 01:55 pm:

I agree with the timing guys but you mention having an E-Timer. They require a set up to operate properly and yours doesn't appear to be working right. Your coil points are jumped out any way with an E-Timer. Si? Do the other 3 coils have new condensers?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Monday, July 13, 2015 - 03:29 am:

Thanks for the quick response and ideas and information. I forgot to add as I was writing the questions, that the "engine rebuild", was done maybe 6 years ago, and that the previous owner had it for 4 years plus, and a youngster, maybe a year or more before that, and that I don't think many miles were driven, in all that time. The car was owned by a past President, of the San Diego Cali, Model T Club, as I was told. Anyway...

Roger K. Thanks for answering both my questions.

James G. The other 3 coils, only had new points installed, and were tested on a StroboSpark and tested good.

Chad M. When you mentioned that, I had a deep down feeling that Carb might be out of adjustment too.

Steve J. I understand and agree completely, with what your saying.

Charlie B. I will have to double check those too. The E Timer was cleaned and inspected, by an experienced T guy, at the time, the coils were re-installed, and he also cleaned and gaped the Champion X spark plugs.

Mark R. I was scared when I saw that Red Hot exhaust pipe, and I do have a fire extinguisher in the car.

Norman K. I will check out the fuel mixture, and try to adjust that first, and go from there. The car starts and runs smooth as I said.

I will keep you up to date, with my progress. Thanks for your time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Monday, July 13, 2015 - 08:05 am:

Please check the valve timing. The exhaust valves could be closing too soon & the intakes opening too late.

I would check the valve timing by the piston position method. Those saying to use valve gaps of a certain measurement are not taking piston position into account. Using piston position method, you will end up with different gaps as measured with gauge..... but each cylinder will be getting the same volume of intake/exhaust.

Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 - 12:47 am:

I went to town for groceries in the roadster this afternoon, a round trip of about seven miles. One of the bank signs claimed 98. When I got home I left the car idling for a few minutes while I took some pictures. It got warm enough for the radiator to boil, not just gurgle. Remembering Mike's comment about a red hot exhaust being normal, after I backed the car into the shop I let it run. I pulled up the floor boards, shut the door, and turned off the lights. No red glow. Not the slightest. Admittedly, I didn't drive it hard. Never got above 35 mph. After I shut it off the boiling didn't last long. I consider what I did today normal Model T driving, some on the flat and some climbing. What does it all mean? I report, you decide. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 - 03:49 am:

Bob, thanks for the advice, not sure if I'm good enough to do it right, by myself. Months ago, when I first started tinkering and learning about the car, I asked for help from a local T mechanic, or a local T club for help, on the Forum here, and ONLY 1 person stepped up and offered and came to my house several times, on his days off from work, and Helped me at no charge, and I am forever grateful to him, for taking his time, to evaluate and help me work and learn about the car. BTW, I Only live about 20 miles,(1/2 hour drive), from Portland, OR! What I have learned, is mostly in the Model T Bible, and newly acquired CD's, from Bruce McCulley,the forum, and of course Eric B., who answered my call here. Enough ranting from me.

Steve J. I've have a full schedule and won't be able to work on the car, until Wednesday, and will try the Carb adjustment and checking the timing, DR's appointment ETC. I was going to take a picture of the Red Hot exhaust pipe, but I was using my cell phone for my GPS Speedo! I got up to 33 MPH, no too bad for a winding 2 lane road with a Bunch of blind curves! After adjustments, I will try again to head into town, about 8 miles, one way. Thanks again for your input, I respect your opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John C Codman on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 - 10:08 am:

I beg to differ with Chad. An overly rich mixture causes cooler rather then hotter combustion. I know that this is counter-intuitive, one would think "More gas, more heat" but a rich mixture doesn't burn efficiently as there is not enough air for complete combustion. A lean mixture will cause high combustion temperatures and red hot exhaust. AS was mentioned in other posts, there are other causes for a red hot exhaust as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 - 11:12 am:

John,

Is correct.
A lean mixture is still burning when the exhaust valves open. Causing fire to exit the exhaust ports and can burn the valves and heat the manifold and pipe to red hot. The further down the manifold the hotter because the each cylinder is pushing it's fire down the line so to speak and the front is cooled a bit from the air blast from the fan.

I have seen the manifold in a dark garage glow a dull red. A dull red is not that bad but a bright red would be a cause for concern in my mind and down the pipe even more.

I would make sure the timing is advanced and the mixture is riched up a bit and see what it does.
If that doesn't do it then the valve timing maybe to tight and the exhaust valves are not shutting completely.

Good luck and let us know what you find.
Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek Brookshire, Texas on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 - 12:56 pm:

Also be sure your rear parking brakes are not dragging and causing the engine to work harder. Been there, done that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul O'Neil, Fullerton, CA, USA on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 - 01:52 pm:

Do you have the manual for your E-Timer? If not, download it from the E-Timer website <http://www.modeltetimer.com/> and read it through. It will tell you about checking the timing and operating the E-Timer.

Once you get it timed there is very little to do, they require no fiddling.

Vintage Paul, E-Timer user


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 03:37 am:

Just an update on my NH Carb adjustment...

Last couple of days got sidetracked on a couple of other little things on the Fordor. Finally adjusted the carb today,and closed the mixture needle, until it gently stopped turning, adjusted it back out, 1 1/2 turn, then back in about an 1/8 turn, and seemed to run and sound fine. Took a quick test drive, and got maybe about a mile away from the house. Got it shifted into high gear, and got up around 30MPH, then it faltered, and seemed like it ran of fuel.( and I think?), I also heard a knock sound from the engine. Checked the rad and fuel before I drove, and had more than 5 1/2 Gal., of fuel. Rad level was good shape. The Exhaust pipe, did NOT get red hot, but I also didn't drive as far as last time. I was late starting today, so it was getting dark, and it is pitch black out here in the foothills, so I ended that, and will readjust some more on Friday, and test drive again. Going to check the T bible and the CD's for trouble shooting, before hitting the bed. Will update again Friday night.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 11:27 am:

You might have a partial clog in the fuel line between the tank and carburetor. Or a vapor lock. If it runs good for a while and then faltered like it ran out of gas then after it sets for a few minutes it will start up and run fine again for a while It is starved for gas. You mention foothills. When going up hill, with the tank under the seat, sometimes the fuel will get low when going uphill because of the gravity flow. Try a full tank and see if you get the same result. I have a 22 Roadster and it will happen when the tank gets low. The Fordoor is much heaver than a Roadster and will take more gas to climb a hill. Anyway before you do any serious tinkering, try with a full tank. If it runs better, you will have found out the cause of the problem, and if it still runs the same, you have a different problem.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 05:16 am:

Update on the Fordor RED HOT Exhaust pipe.

Norm, I did what you suggested, and filled the gas tank up, but ran out of gas in the 5 Gal. can, thought I had more, but...that is the way my week is going. It got up to 7 plus Gal of gas.

Adjusted the Carb again, to be richer, and, made sure the spark lever was advanced as far as she would go, and drove it with two other people in it also.... and semi good news, it ran smoother and no sign or noise of misfire, and only got Orange glow once, and went the same distance, as the first drive, so definitely a improvement, but I adjusted it a 1/16TH turn richer again tonight, but ran out of time, and the heat and humidity, forced me to stop, as the sweat was pouring onto my gasses, and just couldn't go any further. Took a couple of photos, and something I had missed on another part of the car, but came out blurry, so will retake with phone camera tomorrow, and ask a couple of questions about that. Like you said, the extra weight of the two people, sure made a big difference, as we only got up to 30 MPH.

I did notice, that I need to adjust the Rocky Mountain Brakes. Replaced the brake light switch, with a Fun Projects one, and very easy to install. Need to still inspect the timer and take a photo of it. I have been logging all my repairs and for some reason, I wrote down E-Timer, BUT, I remember him saying, it had a roller in it, whereas E-Timers don't. Hopefully will find out tomorrow, after I take the cover off, and shoot a photo of it.

Will update again, as I slowly progress, and Thanks to everyone again for your help. Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 07:51 am:

I would suggest adjusting the carb with the engine running. The number of turns open from a book means almost nothing. It's a good place to start on an unknown carb, but the setting for any particular carb will depend on the condition of the needle and seat and the angle of the taper. The more abrupt the angle, the touchier the adjustment. How some previous owner has ground the taper could be anyone's guess.

Some people set their carb and never touch it again. Some people seem to mess with it the whole time they are driving, claiming it needs to be leaned more for highway than city, etc. I typically richen mine 1/4 - 1/2 turn for a cold start and lean out as soon as it starts to "lope" which is usually less than a minute. After that, I seldom have to touch it again until I start it cold again. I believe those who have to mess with the mixture when changing speeds probably have an incorrect float level. In the Summer, the correct setting may be slightly leaner than in the Winter due to air density.

At any rate, I would suggest getting your car up to temperature and then, at idle, slowly lean it until it starts to run poorly. Then slowly richen it while keeping track of how much you have turned it, until it starts to run poorly again. When you have those two points, turn it back in half way between the two or just ever so slightly richer than half way between the two, and see how it runs for you. Hopefully, it will run nicely. Another method is to richen it until it runs poorly and then slowly lean it until it JUST begins to run good, and leave it there.

Just bear in mind that it may need to be richened 1/4 to 1/2 a turn when starting, then leaned back out after warming a bit. And also, when it gets cold weather, that setting may be too lean and need to be richened a bit for Winter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 08:06 am:

I still think the timer and the ignition timing should be one of the first things to check when you have a red hot exhaust and sluggish performance. Especially when it now seems you have a regular roller timer(?)

Do you start the car with the timing lever fully up and then pull it down until it runs good? Do pulling the lever down make the engine run smoother? Do you start with the key towards "bat" and flip over to "mag" or is it running on bat all the time?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 08:37 am:

Heat and humidity in the Vancouver/Portland area? Come on!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 06:01 pm:

Hal, yes I agree with you, I have been adjusting it with the motor running, as I know that the fine tuning is so much better this way by the sound of the engine, than any book could tell me, but being new to this I had to have a starting point to go by. I marked the Needle valve with some chalk, along with the carb body, for that reason. I surely don't want to mess with it every time I drive it, as long as it is running smoothly, with no problems, I will try and achieve that goal. I just might try that adjusting it rich, until it runs poorly, then slowly backing it off. Good idea.

Roger...I definitely have always started the car fully retarded, lever all the way up, then pulled down, to find it's "sweet spot", which is usually all the way down, and it has always ran smoothly that way. Something I forgot to mention, was that it does not run on Mag, as I was told when I bought it, that it doesn't work. I haven't even started checking into that problem yet. Could be a loose wire, or a very expensive repair. I always use Bat, all the time.

Steve...Yeah, who would have ever though???? Ha ha


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 08:29 pm:

Wait a bit here. Does he have an E-Timer or not? He mentions pulling the spark lever to full advance for the best running. Wouldn't that indicate the timing's off with a roller timer? Even the venerated spark/throttle diagram posted above doesn't show the spark fully advanced except for flat out running.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 09:51 pm:

Keith posted :
" I wrote down E-Timer, BUT, I remember him saying, it had a roller in it, whereas E-Timers don't. Hopefully will find out tomorrow, after I take the cover off, and shoot a photo of it."


Waiting for his update & pictures......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 11:18 pm:

"...as I was told when I bought it..." Those words reminded me of the fellow who sold me my touring. He told me it needed a new starter. The bad starter was miraculously cured when I installed a new battery. Your magneto may be toast, or it may not. As the old newspaper folks tell young reporters, If your mother tells you she loves you, check it out. Here's how to check magneto output.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 - 04:17 am:

Hi ALL...Thanks for your patience. After a frustrating afternoon the only good picture I got of the timer, is this photo. I used my phone camera, and regular camera, this is from the phone.
Anyway, I don't know if you can tell if this is a roller Timer? The fuel has had me adjusting, then readjusting, but again, too late to test drive, but ran smooth in Ford low, on the front lawn. Notice something with the Rocky Mountain Brakes, so I decided to adjust them, before I drive anywhere else. Right now, the brakes are disconnected, so I have none, first thing, I have to is readjust them, then test drive. I will update you all after that.

Steve, I don't have an AC Voltmeter, Analog Type, so I guess I will go to Harbor Freight, and get one. Looks like I need to make shopping list. Just found a 1156 Bulb in my trunk, yesterday! That's weird?

Sorry Bob & Charlie, seems when I start doing something on the T, then I found more stuff. I gonna bet that it is a roller timer, can't say how I know, but just a feeling. Thanks All. Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 - 04:34 am:

Sorry, the picture is too big, will resize tomorrow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 - 05:02 am:

T Timer 1925 Fordor I hope this works
t timer


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek Brookshire, Texas on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 - 07:18 am:

Keith, The lever all the way up or all the way down is no real indication of where the spark timing is retarded or advanced as the linkage to the timer cover may have slop in its travel or the rod is bent improperly. You need to re time the engine to be sure. I have never pulled the lever all the way down on any of my T's even at road speeds above 30 mph. Once you are used to the sound of the engine you can adjust the timing where the engine purrs at any particular speed. Each T is a little different. Don't assume that the previous owner had things set up properly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 - 07:27 am:

That is a New Day Timer. It does not have a roller. It has something similar to a motor brush that runs around the inside of it making contact with "Contacts" that are molded into the plastic case. The originals are not a bad timer at all. Take it off and see if it is smooth inside and what the condition of the brush is like.

Also, read up on how to adjust the timing (Not set it from the seat). You need to have it set so that with the spark advance fully retarded, it fires after top dead center. Book says 15 degrees. That's fine if there's no slop in the linkage. Mine both have some slop, so I find it better to make it fire just a tad past TDC. That ensures I get full advance on the other side. Some of the safety freaks may disagree. That's fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 - 07:51 am:

Looks like a New Day timer. Take it off (without unhooking the cables) and clean it out / check the condition. Post photos of the innards for evaluation here. When you put it back it's very likely the link that connects it to the column control will need to be bent/adjusted to correct the timing.

It's easy to check the timing - just turn the engine with the hand crank until #1 cylinder (closest to the radiator) is about to ignite. With the spark plug lying on the head, connected to the wire, both gas and spark fully up, feel with the thumb on the spark plug hole as someone cranks the engine when it's on the compression stroke, then switch the ignition on bat. Continue to crank very slowly until the spark plug starts to ignite. The crank pin where the hand crank engages should point to 9:30 - 3:30. If it ignites later with the lever retarded (as I suspect) you would have to bend the link some until it's just right. You don't want to have the ignition before the crank pin is horisontal - then you'll have problems with backfire and a much higher risk for a broken wrist when hand cranking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 - 08:13 am:

Wow, I'm slow typing on the cell phone.. Hal posted about the same info much faster :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 - 10:37 am:

Hope you didn't pay any extra for that "E" Timer that isn't.

Sounds like you are on your way to getting the bugs worked out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 - 07:02 pm:

Thanks for the feedback...

Michael P.. You are right, while going over the car in the last 6 months, I have learned that after 90 years, some "changes" have been adapted, "to work". Looks like adjusting the timing is in the cards for me.

Hal...Yes I will read The BOOK, and the CD's and learn how to do it.

Roger... Thank you so much for your detailed, step by step instructions and I will update with more photos. Only problem, is that I live out in the "sticks", with only my 3 legged dog, and he is Not a very good helper. Ha

Larry, It came with the car, but I think I got a very good deal, for my dream car.

I am a visual learner, give me pictures over written instructions any day, OR even step by step instructions, the ones for adjusting the Rocky Mountain Brakes, is going to take me awhile, to figure out to adjust my brakes tonight!

The people who make these parts, better start putting simple understandable instructions with their products, and Make the parts CORRECT, so newbie's like me, who had never owned a T until 8 months ago, Can AND Will, keep this Hobby alive and $$ in their pocket. The people on this forum, who are so knowledgeable, aren't going to be around forever. Hope your listening....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Thursday, July 23, 2015 - 04:56 am:

Here is my update for today.... I ran all over trying to find a Analog Voltage Meter, and all said no, just had digital, finally on the way back home, found one at radio shack, a little pricey I thought, but that's what was recommended.

Got only a couple of hours work on the T, But...I got the Rocky brake's adjusted, going by their instruction sheet as I had read it over and over, trying to understand it, and let my mind try and figure it out from there. After I got under the car, and played with the brake rods and such, it wasn't so bad after I understood, how it all comes together. Didn't test drive on the road, but took a few laps around the front yard, and the brakes worked. Did find a few more problems though, a bolt backed off the adjusting nut, so that was an easy fix, but I haven't put more than 30 Miles on the car, since I had it.

Anyway found a couple of more problems, after climbing under the rear end I noticed my brand new exhaust, blew Apart! I think it happened a couple of days ago, and just thought, after it backfired, it was just still just noisy. Will take it off, before I give it a test drive tomorrow. Will try and see if I can just put the exhaust back together, or get or will have to get a new one.

Will try and download a couple of photos next. Thanks again ....Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, July 23, 2015 - 09:36 am:

Keith, you probably have the timing set by now, but since the question comes up so frequently I made a web page about it. http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Thursday, July 23, 2015 - 05:09 pm:

Steve, I wish I could say yes to your statement, but I was planning on doing the timing today, after I took off the New muffler, and put on the Old, until I repair it, then test drive it on the road to see how the carb adjustment is working, but,I aggravated my herniated disc last night, and can barely walk, I now walk using what I call, "the old man shuffle". Thanks for the pictures and how to steps on the timing. I have to go to town today, so I will see how I feel, when I get back, if I can do it. Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Friday, July 24, 2015 - 03:29 am:

Well, the latest T update is as follows, with not so good results.....

Surprisingly, I somehow managed to crawl under the T's rear end, with the stabbing back pain and all, and remove the New exploded muffler, and replace it with the Old one. So far so good, next it was time to test the T on the road, practiced with a few laps around the front yard, ran smooth, then onto the road. Almost mostly coasted down my hill, to the first stop sign. Turned on the road that go's into town, got up enough speed, then shifted into high then drove, about a 1/16th of a mile, then the engine sputtered, and then just quit, and shut itself down. Luckily I coasted and was able to pull off the road. The spark lever was only about 3/4 of the way down, not all the way down as before, and gas lever was about the same. Tried starting it with the foot starter, but, NOTHING, would not turn over at all. Lights, coils (buzzed) still worked, but no cranking at all. Some nice local, towed me back home, maybe to total, of 1/2 mile.

Now again, I am at a stand still, as I have no idea how to proceed, it's hard to think straight, while in pain. I was going to take photos of the inside of the timer, like Roger suggested above, after I got back home from the test drive, and
try and time it, but now??????? I think I need a good rest tonight, and maybe be thinking better tomorrow. Wanted to take it to the next town Friday and Saturday, as they have a bunch of nice old cars there, but I guess not. Help please? Thanks Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, July 24, 2015 - 08:35 am:

Sputtering and dying suggests fuel starvation, unrelated to the starter. Possible reasons: not enough gas in the tank; water in gas; dirt or debris in the carburetor. Dead starter possibilities: the worst is least likely, starter gone bad; more likely is a bad ground, or bad switch, or weak battery (could be enough juice to buzz coils or light the lights, but not enough to turn the starter).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, July 24, 2015 - 11:57 am:

Did you forget to turn the gas on?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Friday, July 24, 2015 - 04:01 pm:

Hi Steve and Hal...

Hal, yes I did have the fuel valve on, as I did drive it around the front yard for about ten minutes before taking it on the road, and it started right up after stopping it a few times, and still ran pretty smooth.

Steve, it still sure does sound like a carb/fuel problem to me also, as for the starting part, I'm going to town later, and check the auto parts, for a new starter switch. it's a new battery, just put in a few months ago, but I will try to put a charger on it now, and let it get juiced up. Has about 7 gallons of gas in it. Maybe I'll drain the carb bowl, and the sediment bulb.

Won't be doing much, as I can't stand or walk very well, but will "grin and bear it", the best I can. The weather forecast predicts chance of rain starting
tonight through Sunday. Going to start another thread, to see if I can get some local help again.
Thanks again guys. Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Friday, July 24, 2015 - 04:35 pm:

SEE POST BELOW THIS...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Friday, July 24, 2015 - 04:37 pm:

Oops, above this one


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 04:41 am:

Update......
Took a couple photos of inside the Timer.
Also pulled number 1 spark plug, and it was loaded with carbon, and a bit of raw gas, will adjust the carb again to lean her out. Also , as I was putting the timer back on, I pulled the timer rod, towards the right side of the car, and put it back in it's place, then just out of curiosity, tried starting it....And BINGO, it started right up! Yeah

Looks like I'm gonna have to defiantly time the Timer, AND play with the fuel mixture, but now it is narrowing down my problem, I Hope! Now I need my back to heal a little bit faster, just need to let it rest for a spell. Thanks Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 10:08 am:

The New Day timer is a very good one, but over many years service the brush will wear down and also can get a rough area around the contacts from sparks jumping if you don't have a very good connection with the brush. So even though the new day is a good timer, it could be worn out. Please post pictures of the inside of the timer. Signs of a timer problem would be either misfiring on one or more cylinders, or sudden stop. However a fuel starvation would be like running out of gas. It would slowly die while running smoothly.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 10:41 am:

To properly set the timing requires a little bit of easy work. You need to remove the #1 spark plug and with the key off, turn the engine slowly until you can see both valves are closed (a flashlight is helpful) and the piston is coming up. At that point you need to continue slowly pulling up on the crank until the piston is at the top of its stroke.

Then you need a special tool for the job. I typically use a plastic coffee stir stick from McDonald's but anything wood or plastic that can sit on top of the piston will suffice. You want to see the piston go down slightly. The 1915 Dyke's manual says 3/16" after top dead center (TDC).

With the spark lever all the way to the top (retarded) this is where spark should occur on BAT. With the spark plug connected and laying on the head bolt you can observe this easily. You will likely have to bend the spark rod that goes from the steering column to the timer to achieve the proper adjustment.





Note that the Dykes manual also gives a dimension of where to set the timer, but this dimension is not accurate for the New Day or any other kind of timer other than the original (not reproduction) Ford roller timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Schwab on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 10:52 am:

My uncle had a problem with his T sputtering and stalling after he got a ways down the road. Turned out to be a plugged screen in the sediment bulb. Got it clear and has run fine since. Nothing to do with red hot exhaust though.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Thursday, July 30, 2015 - 05:29 am:

Hi everyone, just a quick update as to my little problem....Well,it looks, and I hope, that they are behind me now. After having a Model T friend, who helped me last time, when I put out a call for help, he came out Tuesday morning, and checked out the Fordor. After adjusting the Timer Rod with a few "tweeks", and a few adjustments on the Carb,(and also the RM Brakes), he took it for a test drive, and it ran Fantastic! He drove it all the way into town, (8 Miles, one way),with absolutely No Red Hot Exhaust pipe, or stuttering or any form of problems with performance. It ran smoothly and top speed of about 45 MPH. It does need a couple of more things done to it, as it boiled over when we returned to the house, so I have ordered a new copper head gasket, to take off the head and clean out the water ports and give it a good flushing out, maybe use CLR first.
Anyways, I once again want to thank all of you with all of your advise and tips, with this, and I really Thank Eric Bruckner, for taking his time, and experience with his hands on unselfish Help that he gave to me. I probably would still be adjusting the carb, if not for him.
I feel very comfortable now, while the car is running great, to venture into town, and start practicing my driving, stopping and gear shifting,in a large parking lot. It might not happen in the next few days, as it is suppose to be over 100 degrees Thursday, and high 90's for about a week. Well,I have waited 7 months, I think I can wait a bit longer. I also aggravated my back again, as it swelled up Tuesday evening, so a little bit more bed rest, is called for.
Thanks, Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Thursday, July 30, 2015 - 07:38 pm:

Upon rereading this thread, it definitely looks like I was advancing the spark way too much, and with the other adjustments, timing and carb, and finding their sweet spot, the other day, I still have a lot to learn. Thanks again everyone, for a well learned lesson. Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Sunday, August 02, 2015 - 04:28 pm:

Keith-
Are you able to come to the Rose City Model T Club meeting this coming Thursday?

It would be good to get you connected here.

http://www.rosecitymodeltclub.org/


: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Sunday, August 02, 2015 - 04:43 pm:

I agree the hot exhaust was mostly timing to far advanced, some carb mixture issue also. Now running great but does slowly heat up and push out the water. New radiator, water pump, I am thinking the block needs cleaned out. It was hot and we ran up some hill a lot, but it still should do it without overheating enough to push out the water. Mine doesn't. I hope when we pull the head we find a bunch of rusty gunk in the way. Then I'd like to see how she does without the water pump.
Keith T, I need to get re-connected out there too. Life starting to normalize with new job......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Sunday, August 02, 2015 - 06:31 pm:

Hi Erich...I ordered the parts last Wednesday, Cooper head gasket, and a few extra spare parts, and it was shipped priority mail 2 day service, well the PO held it up back east for some unknown reason, it got into Portland early this AM, so hopefully will get it Monday. Someone also noted about overheating after running and shutting down, saying tire pressure, even by a few pounds, could help cause it, as well as to lean, and retarded of course. Makes sense to me, the car has mostly been sitting since Dec., so will check that out as soon as I can. This break today in the 90-100 degree heat, is a welcome break for me, as it is so hard to breathe for me.

Keith T...if the weather gets a bit better, I may be able to come, couldn't go to the picnic Saturday, as it was way too hot.

Thanks guys
Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Monday, August 03, 2015 - 01:07 pm:

OOoops, I meant not advanced enough. Anyone have other reasons for boiling over. While running the heat builds until it starts to spit out water then overheats after the water gets down to far. Not just boiling after shutdown. Runs very cool first 5 miles. I do not believe there is drag from the bands, brakes, tires, etc. Timing and mixture are correct.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Monday, August 03, 2015 - 04:10 pm:

Take the water pump off, they cause a restriction and since it is a new radiator it is not necessary.
Rick


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