Trans cover off first time and I found this

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Trans cover off first time and I found this
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 - 09:48 pm:

Guys decided to lift the trans cover on my 26 for the first time and was pleasantly surprised to see a trans screen although the contents were different and there is no magnet. The trans brake isn't ideal as I have to press further down than I do in my 27 Coupe(woolen bands).
I then noticed it has wooden bands and the pieces in the screen look like splinters.
It looks like it has be overhauled at some stage but I see the brake spring is compressed much more than the others. My Coupe shows all springs compressed equal.
So is this the reason the brake pedal goes further down?
Also can I adjust the pedal further back up without the spring function being compromised?
I'm guessing the brake drum was turned to clean up and they have taken too much meat off it?
The brake works fine its just a long push to activate which doesn't feel right.

(I've only had this speedster a month or so and I'm slowly working through all the issues I'm finding).
Another issue is I found when driving and changing into top gear, even though I throttle off, the trans would slip until I once again push the hand brake lever all the way forward. The lever felt like it would pop back up about an inch when the pedal was released. Yesterday I adjusted the linkage quite a few turns to get the 1/16th and also the bolt that rest on the plate and that fixed the problem, great.
My pedals look out of alignment now and they were correct before. Should I undo yesterdays mods and try another approach?

Thanks
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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Peterson College Place, WA on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 - 10:17 pm:

Something also looks wrong with the band ears on the reverse peddle. They look spread out and the spring is sneaking past one side.
I am in Cochrane for the 50th tour and have had to use the brakes a little more than I am used to in my heavy Fordor. The first time was exiting the parking lot at Lake Louise. Pushed on the brakes to stop halfway down a very steep hill with cars stopped 1/2 way down. The brakes started to grip an then there was absolutely nothing! The emergency brakes locked up and we slid to a stop. In the parking lot that evening I opened up the trans cover expecting to find some catastrophe but all looked good. But the adjuster needed to be taken up almost 1/2". All was good until driving down the steep hill into Cochrane tonight. I had to use the brakes a few times when tragic slowed in front of me. Now mind you, I was not riding the brakes or on them more than to just take 5 mph off the speed. After the third short braking, the brakes again faded to next to nothing. Back I. The parking lot it took two full turns to get brakes back to functioning. All I can say after this tour's experience is that the wood bands are coming off as soon as I get home!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 - 10:26 pm:

Looks like you have a small drum, pre-1926 transmission, that alone would reduce your braking performance and band lining life. I have no experience with wood bands, I use Kevlar from Rocky Mountain Machine Company (not RM brake Co.). All those splinters don't look encouraging.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 - 10:37 pm:

I thought it didn't look the same width as my Coupe, ....bugger!
The wooden bands seem to operate alright otherwise and some people like them.
Perhaps I look at a Kevlar set at some stage. The handbrake is brilliant so maybe setting the foot pedal to operate them is worth considering.
Do you have an address for the Rocky mountain machine company Ted or do some of the major suppliers stock there product?
I might be able to fit a washer in that reverse spring to ensure full contact in the meantime?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Elliott on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 - 10:44 pm:

The reverse drum has the wrong spring on it. It will be an easy change to put the correct spring back. I am not a fan of the wood bands. I have heard of to many tales of near misses.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 - 10:48 pm:

First, for our American readers, please note that this is a right hand drive T. The band adjustment is different than you are used to seeing.

Kevin W, I don't like the looks of that brake band. Hopefully, it just needs a new lining. First, I would open it up quite a bit and inspect the drum. I have never had a brake drum that had cracked on the braking surface, but I know it does happen. Some of that debris does look like wooden band splinters. And with the adjustment that tight, I would expect the lining is worn way down. Pull them all out and check both the linings and the drum surface.
Bands can be pulled out and changed through the little cover hole. But most T people recommend removing the whole hogshead.

I prefer to never have the model T drums turned because the are usually thin enough to start with. If they have any sharp edges or roughness? I use a big file and sandpaper to smooth them out, and nothing more.

If the drums are too under-size to adjust well already? I have toyed with but never tried two ideas. One would be to sleeve a drum larger. It would probably have to be brazed to keep it from ever working loose. And I am not sure I like the idea in general. It would have the advantage of strengthening the drums slightly however.
The other idea would be that as long as the drum appears sound and strong enough? Relocate one band ear to shorten the band and allow for about an additional half inch of adjustment.
As I say, I have never tried either idea.

As far as the clutch/brake handle issue goes? The first thing to check is the emergency brake and handle adjustment. Your brake rods may be too long (sometimes require cutting, sometimes only adjustment). If the brake rods are too long, they will push the handle forward (handle backward?) and cause clutch adjustment problems.
Good luck!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 - 10:49 pm:

Dang I type slow!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 - 10:57 pm:

That spring that is 1/2 in the ear is the low speed, reverse looks OK, but that brake looks to be on it's last leg.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Wednesday, July 15, 2015 - 01:27 am:

Thomas I have a set of 3 new springs on hand so I could change it but the ear does look twisted so I might need a washer also? I haven't attempted this yet... is it a simple case of removing the obvious and replacing the spring (without dropping anything inside)?
Wayne it didn't take that long to read it lol. I am only guessing the drum was turned down (the previous owner died about 4 yrs ago, car been stored and I have no access to its history) and by what I'm reading its more likely just a worn wood band. It didn't look too thin to my untrained eye at first look so I thought a machined drum was the most likely.

I don't think it was the brake rod length causing this as I couldn't actually get the hand brake lever to lock far enough back to hold when starting so yesterday I adjusted them longer after I adjusted the other. It works perfectly now as does the gear change but the pedal position looks wrong but hey its working!
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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Wednesday, July 15, 2015 - 09:28 am:

Isn't the brake band dragging against the driven plate or am I looking at the pic wrong.

The brake band is moved to far back over the driven plate. I'm thinking that the brake band shouldn't be riding on the driven plate very little if at all. My opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, July 15, 2015 - 09:30 am:

If it is a pre-1926 transmission, I believe that the brake band clamps on both the brake drum and drive plate by design.

BTW, Kevin, those are great closeup pictures!

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, July 15, 2015 - 09:52 am:

There's shredding on that band visible on the left side + it appears to be out of line with the band though it sure looks better in the 2nd. photo. Is any of that stuff in the screen metalic? Think I'd do an oil change too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Wednesday, July 15, 2015 - 10:56 am:

It's been my experience that the band linings don't wear evenly all the way around, they wear more at the bottom than the top.
The top may look like there's lots there, but what does the bottom look like?
Methinks that one of them new-fangled small flexible inspection camera gizmos may be able to be used to look at the bottom while the band is still in place. Anyone have or use one for this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, July 15, 2015 - 11:26 am:

Your linings look OK to me but the spring on the low band is wrong. Notice the other springs are ground to a flat surface where they contact the ears, but the low spring is just cut off flush. That causes much pressure on one side of the band ear because the other side has slipped into the notch left by the end of the spring. You might need to replace the band and the spring to fix this problem. Your band ears are bent.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, July 15, 2015 - 01:34 pm:

Speculation - Maybe somebody in the past clipped a coil or two off of the low band spring to relieve a coil bind situation with a worn band. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Wednesday, July 15, 2015 - 04:15 pm:

What's all that red goop on everything?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Wednesday, July 15, 2015 - 05:03 pm:

Someone's attempt at "Glyptal" ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Wednesday, July 15, 2015 - 06:48 pm:

mark, yes the pics did come out good. If I'm going to ask for you guys help the least I can do is show clearly the issue.
Charlie B, no nothing metallic just wood splinters. When I first got it going a few weeks ago I ran it for ten minutes on jacks with the wheels spinning to allow a diff oil check and changed the engine oil then so its new however I don't know how long ago or miles ago) the oil screen had been cleaned.
Ken great idea but I don't have access to one of those. Are you saying that it looks like there is enough meat on the top that is showing?
Norman that's a good point. I got a heap of spares with the car including a bunch of bands and I do have removable ears available plus new springs so that's achievable with what i have.
Mark not sure but could be.
John..the red stuff looks like some sort of paint. The owners family that sold the car to me said he had spent a lot of money doing it up but had no idea exactly what was done so I guess this was part of the process.
I've cleaned the screen and I'm tempted to pull the brake band off and replace with a beefy used woolen one already assembled in my parts pile via the inspection hole after removing the ear plus address that 1st gear spring & its ear while I'm in there.
I'm happy enough with how the wooden bands are operating so I could leave the brake one there and monitor the screen for more splinters? Would would you do/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Wednesday, July 15, 2015 - 07:25 pm:

If no problems were found i would only replace the brake band and monitor the others.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Wednesday, July 15, 2015 - 07:37 pm:

Thanks Kep.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Thursday, July 16, 2015 - 11:34 am:

I've never done it but I suspect that you could disconnect the bands at the top and then rotate them around to see how the bottom of the band looks. That way you could inspect the whole band, not just relying on what one sees at the top.
Anyone ever done that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Thursday, July 16, 2015 - 07:03 pm:

That should be possible with the ears off Ken. i don't actually use the brakes that often where I live so I could put it back together and rely on the other brakes for a few hundred miles then check the screen again and see if the bands are shreeding.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 12:05 am:

Kevin, you might be able to change the band without pulling the hogs head but I doubt it unless you are going back with other than wood. I like the wood bands, all I run but the wood really makes them stiff. I don't think you will be able to work them through the inspection cover without distortion of the band and cracking the wood. If there is a trick I don't know maybe someone will chime in and we will both learn something. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 12:18 am:

Keith I wasn't going to replace the brake band with wood. I'm happy enough the way the wood band works except the pedal is lower to use. I have a 2nd hand beefy woolen band in my spares so i was thinking of sliding that in and seeing if that changed the pedal height at braking and allowed the spring to look like the other two instead of compressed up?
Would the wood lined band be flexible enough to pull out without lifting the hogs head?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 02:37 am:

Yes, you should be able to do that. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 06:08 am:

Ok Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Hoogendoorn on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 06:58 am:

Hi Kevin, my RHD T had the same problem; brake adjusted almost all the way and pedal very low, too much pedal movement before the brakes actually grab. Closer inspection showed that the brakes work perfect with the floorboards removed....the pedal was bent! After heating the pedal I pulled it back three inches, the band now contracts the minute I touch the pedal. With the cover open check lateral movement of brake operating shaft, if there is no immediate movement you may be suffering from a bent pedal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John C Codman on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 12:16 pm:

I'm not an expert on the T transmission, but I have been around cars all of my life (so far). My guess is that at some point in the past, this transmission suffered a major failure in the reverse band/spring/shaft assembly. The installed spring is not correct and was probably cut down (shortened) to fit. There is no paint on any of the reverse band apply parts and there is everywhere else. The tabs on the band are bent. IMHO this is evidence of a repair after the transmission overhaul.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 06:46 pm:

Paul, I'll check for that thanks.
John C, good spotting. I noticed no red paint on that one also but never thought about why. Perhaps they never had a factory spring on hand and made something up as you suggested. I haven't looked real hard to see if the other 2 bands are wood.
More to think about.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 06:56 pm:

WHY! are some of you blokes referring to it as the reverse band?
It's the low band in the middle with the unpainted spring and slipped in one side of the ear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 09:22 pm:

Frank the post started off with the wrong reference and I guess people just have it stuck in the mind when typing.
The other two bands look to be wood also although the ends look grey?
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The bolt on the low band, if I remove the spring to change it to the correct model and replace the ear should I fit the modern replacement while I'm in there? http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_model_t/model-t-ford-transmission-adjusting-screw-slow-speed-for-bands-with-detachable-ears.html
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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Saturday, July 18, 2015 - 04:17 am:

You probably only need the modern replacement if the original is missing or has no threads left after rust or wear as removed them.
That advice works on cars i owned.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Saturday, July 18, 2015 - 04:54 am:

looking at the pics Kep it doesn't look worn away unless that part is hidden?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Saturday, July 18, 2015 - 11:51 pm:

It should be serviceable then.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Sunday, July 19, 2015 - 12:36 am:

Ok. I've refitted the screen as it is and been for a 1 hr test run. All the adjustments I have made are working good. Will check the screen again after some miles and have a play around in there then.


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