Just wondering for future use.
Geo. n L.A.
Since I have my engine open I was able to get a picture. This is a March 1929 built engine. On the far left of the markings is a TW with the W imposed over the T. This is followed by: 134 2 Ford B.
This is about all that I can find on the crank for markings.
I've got my inspection pan down trying to find an annoying clunking sound that periodically comes from the bottom of the engine. My first thought was that there was something bouncing around in there. Since I've lowered that pan, I can't find anything that could account for such a noise.
I did notice one thing that has me considering seriously as the cause...on the piston rods end cap, I've got a set of those scoops. On number 1 as it comes down to the bottom of it's stroke (and the deepest it sits into the pan) seemed to stick out further than any of the other scoops in the same position...hopefully this solves my problem...but then maybe not...I'll see.
As for the crank...I always thought I had a Model A crank...well I don't, at least it doesn't look like any Model A crank I've ever seen, but it also doesn't look like the typical Model T crank either...
There are grind markings on it and I'm assuming that these were done over at Eggy's Machine Shop when he balanced my short block. You know how some Model T's can sit there idling shuttering shaking themselves apart, well mine doesn't, it doesn't quiver at all, my engine is one smooth running machine.
Thing is I don't know what the crank is, it's not in my build notes and I can't find anything on it at all. Is this a 24's crank?
Sure looks like the old style Transue&Williams diamond throw crankshaft to me. I know crankshafts changed sometime in later 1925 to a flat sided throw model similar to the EE crankshaft, but manufactured out of vanadium steel. I don't recall exactly when the new style EE crank became standard.
Martin, your crank looks like a typical 09-mid 24 Model T crank. They were beefed up a bit mid 1924 and looks like Justin's above for the rest of production. Ford did some grinding for balance, though they didn't have much time for a good job at the production line, Eggy's may have improved it.
Check the tightness of the rods while you have it opened - just by hand pulling them to the front and back gives a good feel how loose(?) they are.
If you suspect one or more is a bit too loose, you can test the play easily with a piece of paper from a newspaper between the cap and the crank - torqued in place, the engine should be stiff when trying the hand crank, but loose when torqued without the piece of paper (~30 ft-lbs). If no shims to pull, it's common practice to file the caps. (I use a piece of emery paper glued to a plane surface)
Roger how much play from side to side is ok, I've pulled and pushed on them and I've got about .010 either side of the journals but no slop in any other direction.
If it isn't sloppy, then it's likely alright
I suppose it wasn't knocking when you were driving?
No it was more of a clunking sound that was noticeable whilst idling...sometimes. When I put my hand on the bottom of the inspection pan whilst it was running, I felt something hitting the pan. That's why I think it was those bloody scoops, but you'd think it would've worn them down some though, looking at them however there doesn't seem to be any wear on them at all.
The other thing I'm fearful of is that some part (a plate really that holds the upper end of the magnets in place) is what is bouncing around in there...when I had the hogs head off here recently, I looked at the magnets and a couple of those plates were missing, along with the heads of the screws.
Don't run the engine if any of the plates that holds the magnets are missing. Repairing means lifting the engine and splitting the engine, unfortunately..
Did you pull the engine and replace ALL the screws and the missing plates that hole the magnets on? No joke but if you did not, you are running a time bomb! Besides taking out the magneto coil the magnets can blow out the top, side or bottom of the cover and someone could be severely injured when one or more magnets come loose. MY OP is that you should not even be running the car as it is.
You need to replace ALL the brass screws as they become brittle with age and the rest can fail too.
Martin, I agree with the others, If any plates are missing or screw heads are missing, inside of the car. You "MUST" tear the engine down and fix them, before running the engine any more. I am using capitals for a reason. I saw a trans that lost a magnet or something came loose and it destroyed the engine. It broke the hogs head into scrap iron and tore up the floor boards and even destroyed the fire wall and coil box. Not to mention 5 quarts of hot dirty oil completely covered the inside of the car. No one was hurt but it was a miracle they were not hurt. When working in the Neuclear industry we had the words MUST, SHALL, WILL, that were used for things that had to be done "NO Exceptions" and words like CAN, MAY, SHOULD, were used for things that you could use your own discretion on. I think the missing magnet plates should be placed in the first group of MUST, SHALL, WILL, terms. I know its your car to do as you see fit, but please do not get hurt... Subimitted with respect and concern..... Donnie Brown
First, PAY HEED to what Donnie just posted!
Second, if it's something in the engine area hitting, you will find shiny spots where the hits are occurring, like the pan cover, OR the oiling tube. Sleuth around a bit.
Third, Um, has anyone mentioned the possibility of a cracked crank about to become a two-piece one? The TW cranks are noted for this. . . .
But my first concern IS the magneto pieces that are missing.
I had the funnel of a late style oil tube come loose, and tore up the field coil, not to mention it scared the crap out of me. It was safety wired in place too. What happened apparently was the weld or solder joint failed, and the vibration caused it to vibrate toward the rear. Bad news!
Those brass screws that hold the magnet plates on are #14-24 thread I believe. I knocked one of the plates off accidently while changing bands on a July 1913 engine. I heard the plate "go over" as soon as I left the drive.
Rolled it back in the T shop, took off the hogs head and found it. No damage but found another two screw heads with half their top missing.
Some of the early cars have a hole a little larger than the screw head in the magneto coil ring located about "2:30" when looking from the drivers seat. All forgings on this car are DB.
That hole allows the replacement of the brass screw without taking the engine out of the car. I replaced the plate that got loose and two more screws. It is not the most comfortable job to do on a touring but it can be done.
I do not believe the screws can be replaced on the later cars without taking the engine out. The magneto coil ring doesn't have that extra hole in it.
I echo what others have said. Pull the engine and do it right before a disaster falls in your lap. I should have pulled the engine when it happened to me.
Ken in Texas
You guys think it's really that drastic? I've been running like this for more than a year now. Of course the magneto doesn't work, without those plates on the upper end of the magnets current doesn't pass round the ring. The plates that are missing are off two entirely different areas but the screws are bent over the magnets.
Buy you maybe right, I've been putting off pulling the engine to rebuild the magneto and to replace my brake drum (it's worn a ridge on one side), because there's really no room to do it in my garage. But it would give me the opportunity to look for those dratted plates which must be in there somewhere. Damn, I was hoping to get the engine back together for the Long Beach Model T Swapmeet coming this next weekend...oh well.
One question though...if the lower bolts are holding the "V" of the magnet, how can any one magnet fly out? The upper plates as I understand the workings of the magneto is to pass the current generated from the coils round the magnet ring. If one is missing the magnets loose their strength as magnets, but they can't get loose and fly out because of the bolts at the bottom.
Back when my dad and I rebuilt this engine, we put in new brass screws on those plates. So if they let go must of been a materials flaw of at least one screw (not sure about the other one, it's bent over the magnet). The head of the screw I found when I drained the oil a year ago and I didn't know where it came from until I recently had the hogs head off to replace my bands.
This is the dent that plate put in my lower inspection pan (you can see it really noticeable from the other side as well . I've looked all over the inside of the engine from under the car and can't find the bloody thing, I've even used one of those probes with the little screen to poke round in there looking for it and still I can't find it...damn things a ghost...do you think it could've broken up and got ground to bits? But then there that clunk isn't there?
The magnets are made of a very hard and brittle steel. Often there are flaws in the bent area where the inner bolt holds them, resulting in cracked magnets. Unsupported at the ends they'll vibrate totally uncontrolled and crack soon enough - then they may fly through the hogshead.
Additionally, missing plates means unbalance in the flywheel. But that's a minor issue compared to the unsupported vibrating ends of the magnets.
Martin, "YES", I think it is that drastic. All I can say is you are an extreamly lucky person, that it has not exploded and totally destroyed the engine and possibly removed your legs in the process. Usually when a plate comes loose, it will wedge inside the hogs head and start a domino effect of shredding the magnets inside the hogshead and then everything wedges or piles up till there is no where to go till the hogs head explodes. I wish I had taken some pics of the car that I saw that had exploded. But that was about 15 years or so ago and we did not have access to digital cameras then, so pics were usually not taken .. The hogs head was busted into at least 5 or 6 pieces, The bolts for the hogs head had been "torn" thru the crankcase. The flywheel broke into three separate pieces. The bottom of the crankcase had dozens of holes in it. The entire transmission drum assembly was shredded to pieces and the main shaft broke loose from the broken flywheel, allowing the remaining parts of the drums to come out as a unit. One triple gear went thru the door. We never found the triple gear but it was the only thing we could think of that could have made a hole the shape it was. The floor boards were shredded, the firewall was destroyed at the bottom half and it totally broke the coil box loose from the firewall, and bashed in the bottom of the coil box. It even broke the "neck" off the starter and the starter was laying on the ground under the car still attached to part of the hogshead. The mag ring was broken into at least 4 pieces, and the copper windings were shredded into a knotted up mess. And then there was the 5 quarts of hot dirty oil that covered almost every inch of the inside of the car. The owner was very lucky. He had a fractured leg where it probably hit the steering column as it was violently shoved up with probably the floor boards, and it was in the winter so he had a set of Carhart coveralls on. He had some minor oil burns on his face and he was wearing glasses so none of the hot oil got into his eyes. and being winter the oil was not as hot as it could have been. Others may "chime" in with there thoughts, but I really do have a serious concern for your safety. again, respectivaly submitted with concern.... I think I still have the part of the hogs head with the pedals and the bent/broken starter. Ill look and post some pics if I can find them.
Martin, as a side note or thought. I may start another thread and ask. "Is there any danger to running an engine with missing mag plates" I bet we will have almost every answer to the question be "Yes". Please do not take my opinions and rantings on this subject, as anything personally about you. I honestly believe that there is a real danger to running the engine without the plates. Donnie Brown.
Martin I would not start the engine again. It needs to be disassembled and reassembled properly. Loose magneto parts bouncing around inside will cause a tremendous amount of very expensive damage.
You are a treasure.
Your drawings are a great asset for those of us who work on our cars. I do hope that you continue to have the interest and good health to continue providing more drawings.
I've searched for some pictures of the damage caused by broken magnet pieces penetrating the hogshead...unfortunately, I cannot find them to show you.
Your experience operating the vehicle with missing/damaged magnet plates reminds me so much of the famed "Marlboro Man" - I think that he led a grand life...so many pictures of him on horseback with a beautiful background of God's great earth. He defied the odds for years, before eventually succumbing to cancer. Some folks die from other causes, but many smokers usually die from some cancer caused by the smoking.
I fear that this hobby will lose a wonderful illustrator if you continue to push your luck and operate your T with that Magneto problem....a catastrophic failure will eventually come.
Honestly, I wish you many, many healthy years...and some more grand illustrations....please heed the advice of all those who advocate repairing your vehicle before you start the engine again.
David, thanks for the pics. "A picture is worth a thousand words" If you notice in the next to last picture, it appears the flywheel is broken. That engine was just seconds from a total violent explosion. If the engine is idleing it may end up like this, and if at highway speed in high gear it can be a lot worse, especially if the flywheel breaks. As bad as this looks, the one I saw was a lot worse. There actually was nothing left in the area the transmission, flywheel, and mag all occupy. Just a destroyed crankcase full of holes. Everything else was either in the car or under the car. Thanks again...
George, Sorry about your original question getting hi-jacked. But I could not just look the other way when Martin mentioned running the engine with the plates missing. It would be hard to live with knowing that I did not say something if later I heard Martin was hurt by an exploding trans ...
Ok, you guys have convinced me, I'll pull the engine and rebuild the bloody magneto. Been wanting to do that for sometime anyway (to get off that damnable distributor and back to coils like she's supposed to be running on), now's as good a time as any I guess...gonna have to draw quite a few drawings to help pay for the parts though...might be a good time to do the transmission, magneto and engine assemblies though.
Donnie, no worries, did it to help Brother Martin try to identify his crank markings also. Mag. prob was on my mind also.
So, I'm thinking why not drill a hole so you could access the screws ?? As Ken Parker was saying that the early Mag had that. Seems like it would be do able
Thoughts ??? George n L.A.
Martin, This is just my suggestion. as there are several ways to go about the rebuild. At a minimum I think you need to do a total teardown and inspection. You may only need to do a check/clean/and tighten up (if needed) on the engine. Then have the pan straightened on a pan jig if possible. It can be done without a jig but is a lot of extra work. Then rebuild the trans. It at least sounds like you need a new brake drum. You can find good used drums from several of us on the forum. I have a pretty good selection of everything except reverse drums. So try and get a good useable set of three used drums to use. The parts do not need to be perfect but try to find the best you can. Then I highly suggest to get a rebuilt mag ring and not try to re-use a old one. Its just so far to go back into the engine/trans to replace it if for some reason a used one goes bad. In my opinion, its not worth the money to risk it going bad. Also, inspect the aluminum spools for the magnets very closely. They will sometimes crack at the area that touches the magnet ends. I also reverse the spools from the original way they set. I put the end that was against the flywheel to be against the magnet ends. also check the magnets very closely for cracks in the U part of each magnet. Discard any that you even suspect a crack being there. You probably should have them recharged, but if cost is an issue, It can be done in the car. Just keep the magnets in the order they were in the car. If you replace any of them, be sure to orient the north/south poles as they were. I also have tons of magnets if you need some. A new set of bands and some gaskets, and you should be OK for years to come. Like I said, these are just my opinions on what should be done. There are several ways to "skin a cat" so good luck with the rebuild. as always submitted with respect, Donnie Brown ... Keep us posted as to what you find, Im curious where those two plates are. Maybe the previous owner got them out, but ????
Martin, I just re-read where you stated that you and your dad built the engine years ago. It could have been poor material in the screws. There was a time when a lot of repro parts were just junk. But since you have not removed the plates, it sounds like they are still in there somewhere. ????
Donnie, that was my thought too, whilst I had the hogs head off I rotated the engine using the crank to see if any of the magnets had a plate stuck to them somewhere...didn't find any, then I looked round the coil ring, still nothing. Where ever those bloody little things are, they've got a good hiding place and only come out to play when the engine is running at idle, which doesn't make any sense...probably the only time I can hear the clunking sound. But then sometimes there's nothing at all just a smoothly ticking over of the engine and she'll just sit there quietly idling.
And since that time I've looked round from under the engine with the lower cover off and a lighted probe and still didn't find anything anywhere...beats the hell out of me where those little buggers are. But I guess I will soon find out wont I?