Improved car fasteners

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Improved car fasteners
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 12:39 pm:

Perhaps Donnie Brown could look at his touring and let us know the type of fastener holding the front fender and splash/dust shield together.

I bring this up as page 264, Figure 534 of the Ford Service book, shows what looks like slotted head fasteners with flat washers behind the head holding the front fender and dust shield together.

The September 1925 Ford Service Bulletin Page 53 has a better picture.

Some vendors are selling hex head fasteners for this application. Perhaps there was a change from early to late or perhaps the illustration in the book is incorrect. If members on the forum look at their improved cars and report back we might be able to determine just what it is!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, July 18, 2015 - 01:13 am:

Arnie, I believe we discussed this in a earlier post but I can not find it. My notes show that the bolts holding the splash apron to the fender in early production (aprox Aug 1925 to Dec 1925) were 1/4 inch NC round head straight slot bolts 5/8 inch long with square nuts and washers. We do not have a "date of change" so the time frame is aprox. Then later production 1926 and all of 1927 used 1/4 inch NC thick head hex bolts 5/8 inch long with square nuts and washers. The wrench size of the square nuts is 1/2 inch and the wrench size of the thick head hex bot is 3/8 inch. There are two washers per bolt and they are 3/4 inch OD. diameter. Here is a photo of the parts for the late 26 thru 27 models. I do not have a pic of the round head style for early 1926. The 5/8 inch length is measured "under the head"

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, July 18, 2015 - 10:45 am:

The bolt was used on Model A's as well as late T's. My '25 is loaded with them. The hardest part to find is the square nut that is 1/2" across the flats. The bolt is available from Model A vendors, and was used in the cowl area.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Saturday, July 18, 2015 - 11:19 am:

Great, this is another thing that we can add to differences in production vehicles in 1926. Don does your base touring have slotted head fasteners and if so, when was the engine built?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Saturday, July 18, 2015 - 11:24 am:

With the help of other members of the forum, perhaps if they have original vehicles, we can get a sample of which have slotted head and which have hex head to get a better ideal of when the change took place. I hope we get a good response for this question as it is easy to get a visual of this area on the vehicles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, July 18, 2015 - 03:32 pm:

Arnie, My early 26 non starter touring has the slot head screws. I still lean toward my car possibly being a pre production car. Its engine is an improved style engine with the bolts for the hogs head in the back of the block. Its number is Oct 1924. That is 10 months too early for the Aug 1925 debut of the Improved Models. I will probably never be able to prove one way or the other, but there is the very slight possibility that it was a pre production car used to try the new parts, assembly techniques, and tooling needed to switch the factory over to the Improved Models. It has all the early features of a very early 26 model and a few things I can not find another example of on any early 1926 car. Just one more of the things that makes Ts so interesting ... As to the engine number. I know it could be a replacement. But that involves a 1925 (model year) car, needing a new engine, that was replaced with a new "Improved" style replacement engine and the old 1925 serial number being stamped on the new engine, Then that engine would have had to be installed in my car, at some later date, as a replacement for it. Could have happened, maybe did happen, but no one will probably ever know for sure...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Saturday, July 18, 2015 - 09:20 pm:

Donnie:

I do not understand! If it was a 1925 car with a 1926 engine replacement and the original 1925 engine number was stamped in it, what about the other features of the vehicle. For example the hood, dash, gas tank location, all those features point to an improved car! Another problem, do you think Ford had an improved style engine already in Aug 1925 a full 10 months before production? He would keep all the molds for almost a year before going into production? Does you vehicle have the longer clutch and brake pedals? If so did he make these 10 months early also?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, July 18, 2015 - 10:30 pm:

Arnie I meant that the 1925 car could be a totally separate car, and then sometime in the 1925 cars life, a new replacement engine was needed. By the time a replacement engine was needed all that could be bought new would be the Improved style engines. So you now have a 1925 style car with an improved style engine in it, that the old 1925 engine number was transferred to. Then sometime in the life of my car it could have received the replacement engine from the 1925 car as a replacement for my original engine. Im not saying that is what happened but only that it could explain the early number on my cars Improved style engine. As to the AUG 1925 date you mention in your last post. Aug 1925 was the introduction date of the Improved cars. That means by Aug 1925 Ford should already have completed cars for the Introduction. So using my Oct 1924 engine date as just a refrence point. That is a 10 month time frame to design, and pretty much re-tool the whole factory to make an Improved car. There would need to be test cars and prototypes made during that time (or even a longer time spread) The re-tooling was not quite as bad as re-tooling for the Model A, but it had to be close. If you really look at an Improved car, compared to a 1925 or earlier T, you will see that almost every single part of the car was redesigned. With that all said, and in my personal opinion I do not think it unreasonable to think 10 months or even a year is too long of a development/testing/re-tooling time frame. I also personally believe that the time from Aug 1925 to December 1925 was when a lot of the running changes were made. Most changes were made because of weak parts that broke easilly, or assembly problems. Most of the dates of change may never be know but it is fun to keep looking ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Sunday, July 19, 2015 - 07:06 pm:

Donnie, sorry I should of said October 1924 instead of Aug 1925 in my last post! Yes, now I understand what you were saying! Could you look at the "stamping quality" of the engine number of your current engine? If it was a replacement and stamped in by the repair person, perhaps the number size, or font may be different. If that is the case that may help you determine if your theory is correct. Please remember that Ford was not perfect in production stamping of the numbers so it may be difficult to tell!

When are you going to write your book on the difference between and within the years of the improved cars? I am looking forward to purchasing a copy!

Arnie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, July 19, 2015 - 09:20 pm:

Arnie

To confirm those small head hex bolts and square nuts with washers on both faces of the sheet metal, here are photos of an original 1927.

These are the factory/branch installed fasteners for a 1927 touring, authentic and accurate.





Fender to splash shield



This is the original '27 Touring



Doors with raised molding for curtain rod holes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Monday, July 20, 2015 - 11:18 am:

Thanks Dan. Now I hope someone posts a picture of the slotted round head fasteners for an early original 1926 so we have conformation of that in addition to the Ford service book picture!

That way perhaps Donnie Brown could have both pictures in his upcoming book!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale L Myers on Monday, July 20, 2015 - 01:41 pm:

Drivers side of my May 1926 built Tudor.



Passenger side same car.


There are square nuts on the fasteners.

My Son's October 1925 built Runabout has the slotted fasteners on both sides.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Monday, July 20, 2015 - 03:50 pm:

Dale:

Thanks for posting. We now have a general idea that this is another early to late difference, in that early vehicles perhaps used slotted round head fasteners, while later vehicles had hex head fasteners to attach the front fender and splash shield together. I am sure Donnie will want to document this.

Also thanks Dale for posting in the past early features so that I know I was not the only one with some strange configuration!


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