Installing New Wooden Spokes

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Installing New Wooden Spokes
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By lyndel butler on Friday, July 24, 2015 - 09:06 pm:

I purchased new spokes from a major vendor and I built a spoke press and installed the spokes. After pressing the spokes in they are loose in the center. I didn't damage any spokes. The center of the hub is installed but not bolted (no holes drilled between the spokes). Is this normal for some of the spokes to be loose at this point in the process?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, July 24, 2015 - 09:12 pm:

Is it 30" wheels you're rebuilding?
I think the length of the spokes can vary a small amount between wheel manufacturers on early 30" demountables while 21" demountables all have the same spoke lengths (?)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By lyndel butler on Friday, July 24, 2015 - 09:20 pm:

It's a 30" wheel. I assumed all the spokes I purchased (from the same vendor, at the same time) were the same length. Would you recommend me tearing the wheel back down and trying a different combination of (new) spokes?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Dorholt - Mpls, MN on Friday, July 24, 2015 - 09:45 pm:

This is right from Langs catalog.

Hickory spoke for Kelsey - Hayes wheels 30 X 3 1/2" with 1/2" tenon. Ford felloe i.d is 20 3/4" while Kelsey or Hayes felloes i.d. is 20 13/16" so these spokes are 1/32" longer than the spokes for the Ford wheels.
You might have Kelsey or Hayes felloes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Friday, July 24, 2015 - 10:23 pm:

Lyndel,

Is there a letter on the felloe splice plates? H for Hayes, K for Kelsey, P for Prudden or blank. That will help us determine what is going on.

You want the hub to be tight around the hub, that is why you need the spoke press - to squeeze it all together. You do not want the hub loose in the spokes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 12:04 am:

There are no splice plates on the steel fellos. I am respoking a set right now,and so far, have had my share of troubles with the Regan press. If he had been here I would have taught him some new Irish words.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 12:06 am:

There are no splice plates on the steel fellos. I am respoking a set right now,and so far, have had my share of troubles with the Regan press. If he had been here I would have taught him some new Irish words.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 12:43 am:

Lyndel,
It can be you have the wrong spokes but in what shape are your hubs?? I had the same problem once. The spokes were right but the center part of the hub was rusted away and need to be replaced.
Can you show some photos of the hub and the wheels??
For Jack: Can you learn me those new Irish words, I may be need them on my next project.
I made a variant of Johns press and it is working well for me but what I learned is that you should not have paint or varnish on the spokes before you press the wheels.
At the place where the spokes are having contact it will work as glue and your spokes will not slide against each other to find there right place and your wheel will not be straight.

Good luck
Andre
Belgium
Andre


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 12:45 am:

Lyndel-
On the 30 x 3-1/2" wheels, there are two different sizes of spoke Tenons (the little nipple on the end of the spoke); either 1/2" or 5/8". Maybe your tenons should be 5/8" and you have 1/2" ? Double check the size. If you have any questions, I'd suggest you call the vendor.

The wheels should be tight, tight, tight!

-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 01:34 am:


It's OK to paint the spokes. Just don't paint where they have to fit together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 05:05 am:

Lyndel, if the rims you have are the loose lug type, they are most likely Kelsey felloes. These do take the slightly longer spokes. If you have spokes to suit felloes which take fixed lug rims, they will be loose at the centre.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By lyndel butler on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 10:44 am:

I can easily move the wooden spokes in the center up and down (with all spokes installed). I'm not sure the type of hub or rim I have (can anyone help identify?). It has no splice nor splice plates. It has 1/2" tendons. The spoke press worked great - I attached a cardboard ring (as seen in picture) to help hold the spokes up. The ring was held in place with duct tape. This proved to be very helpful in the beginning. Any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks so much!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 11:30 am:

Lyndel,

Will this thread help you determine which felloe you have?

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/115355.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 11:37 am:

From the shallow notch in the outer flange of the felloes at the lug bolt hole locations, it looks like you have Hayes felloes. They also take the 1/32 inch longer spokes.

When I installed the 1/32 inch longer spokes into my Kelsey felloes, the bases of the spokes fit very tightly to each other, to the point that if any stuck up slightly I had to pound them hard with a rubber mallet to get them all even.



pic


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By lyndel butler on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 12:09 pm:

Mark - Thank you very much for the information. You obviously "nailed it"!! I will have to reorder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve johnson on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 12:26 pm:

All the rims have a different inside dia. Each brand of rims are close to each other but spokes being tight at the center after assembly will be hit and miss if the felloe band isn't measured first and spokes cut to match. The tolerance of the rims and spokes can add up to cause breakage of the spokes at the center or looseness at the center. Each felloe band should be measured and each set of 12 made to fit the felloe band being used. Each spoke installed in a 30 x 3 1/2 demountable felloe band need to be .020 inch longer than the radius it represents. This requires the rim to be heated during assembly. After assembly the spokes will have a slight dish that is higher in the center at the rear of wheel. When spokes are not tight wheel will have no dish. If your new spokes are only slightly loose and you can't see a gap between them at the center but the spokes can still be moved at the center try another felloe band of the same brand. It might be smaller.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 06:15 pm:

I've a probably dumb suggestion. What if Lyndel painted or finished the spokes where they contact. That would in effect widen each spoke at the center and push them further outward toward the fellow as they would also be much tighter in the center. This is similar to folks putting shims between the spokes to tighten them up, but wouldn't be a shim but a protective finish. Would that cause too much gap at the hub?, and could that be corrected with a thin circular shim?, or would that be unsafe?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 09:04 pm:

Mark, your comments that Lyndel has Hayes rims is an education to me. The only rims with which I am familiar, which have the outer edge of the felloe without a rolled edge, are 21" wheels used on our Canadian sourced cars. I can understand the notch being required to accept the foot on the Hayes fixed lug rims. Do those felloes have Hayes stamped around the valve stem holes?

The Hayes felloes I have seen all have a rolled in edge, and a relief pressed into the lip to accommodate the lug foot. These are on the Hayes wire wheels on my T's and on the wheels used on Whippet Overlands. It makes no sense to have a different set-up for Ford wheels, but then, lots of things make no sense on a T.

It is time for a definitve treatise on the subject, but our Canadian sourced cars will cause a few headaches sorting it all out. I am not volunteering to be the author, but can help with input if required.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 09:16 pm:

Allan,

That link that I posted for Lyndel

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/115355.html

is an old one, but contains threads with a wealth of information researched and added to and posted by our dedicated, knowledgeable, Indefatigable,
Hap.

Will his treatise help you with your questions?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 10:56 pm:

Thought U may be interested in a few photos of making a wheel

Cut Blanks
wheel

Turning using a duplicator


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 10:59 pm:

2 more pictures

Rough Spokes


Pressing um in


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, July 26, 2015 - 12:51 am:

The first set of spokes I bought from Langs were for 30 inch wheels with .5 tenons. But they were for Ford wheels, and they were loose in the center like you're describing.

I found out that my wheels were Kelsey-Hayes wheels, so when I order the next 3 sets I specified Kelsey-Hayes...they pressed good and the hub is really tight...you may have Kelsey-Hayes wheels, they're 1/32 larger in diameter than the Ford Wheels, yet are still considered a 30" wheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, July 26, 2015 - 02:59 am:

I tried very hard to make the point that my press only works with spokes made EXACTLY to Ford dimensions. Those dimensions are so critical that there are 2 dimensions for the length of the spoke as measured from the hub radius curve to the end of the flat surface that sits on the felloe. That length dimension is .034" shorter AFTER assembly to the wheel than before assembly. After the wheel is pressed together it is nearly impossible to turn the hub nor to withdraw it from the center of the spokes. The looseness of the spokes in some of the pictures tells me that the spokes are NOT made dimensionally correct for the felloe being used. The tenon for the so-called 1/2" tenon is oversize until pressed together. The spoke tenon is NOT ever turned to a square corner where the tenon and spoke end meet. There is a radius in that corner that should match the radius at the entry of the hole in the felloe that is formed to match the curvature of the spoke. Square corners are the bane of wood working since they form a place where wood splits begin. The spokes pictured in parts of this thread are to my mind being made weaker and clearly not to the Ford drawings by having square corners for the tenon. Almost everyone seems to disregard the need for the spokes to be made EXACTLY correct in all details. I made my own spokes to the Ford drawing and the wheel was very tight when pressed together. The press is rarely used in the same way that I used it and at every presentation I have attended where it was used it was modified and used differently with mixed results. It doesn't matter to me how it is used I guess but most seem to modify the design without ever really checking to see if the spokes are correct or not but start modifications as soon as something isn't going right. I have never built up a set of wheels for Hayes felloes and I don't think Ford ever actually sold spokes but only complete wheels which is probably why the different dimensions between various spokes is causing so much grief.

My intent when I started was to make spokes. I informed folks that the drawing specified Hickory but 2 of the larger dealers jumped in and started making spokes and I realized quickly that the prices of spokes in the market was way less than I could make them for and nobody seemed to think that absolute dimensional accuracy was all that important and terms like "amish made" seemed to imply great accuracy and "know how" so I just made them for my car only and didn't go any further with my spoke making efforts. While I have great respect for amish folks and have purchased amish made tables and chairs for my house, I don't think any of those craftsmen have and use Ford drawings for their dimensions but I could be wrong. The tenon dimension for the spokes is much larger than the caliper dimension shown in a picture above when the tenon is new and before it is pressed into the felloe. I don't know what the O.D. of the tenon was before pressing into the felloe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, July 26, 2015 - 09:14 am:

Allan, I believe there are two styles of Hayes felloes, the "straight" edged ones that Lyndel has I believe are earlier. The set of Hayes felloes that are on my car currently have the "rolled" edge that you mentioned. The "rolled" edge has depressions pressed into it at the lug locations to provide clearance for the lug feet. Here are some pics of my later Hayes felloes and rims. Note the "Hayes" name lightly embossed into them.

felloe

felloe2

rim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, July 26, 2015 - 12:45 pm:

Before 1927 there were no Kelsey-Hayes wheels. Until that year they were separate companies. Your Model T wheels can be Kelsey, and they can be Hayes, but they can't be both.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 04:44 am:

Mark, thank you for your clarification on the two Hayes type of felloes. The one in your photos is is the type I know. As a matter of interest, in your second photo, the felloe shows signs that the rim fixed lug has been working on the felloe. This should only happen when the felloe is considerably worn on the inner flange on the felloe. The rim is designed to be wedged onto this inner flange when the bolts are tightened. This makes a tight union between the felloe and wheel. When the nuts are done up, the fixed lug should stand some 1/16"-1/8" off the felloe. When all is well, you should be able to slip a business card between the rim and the felloe on the outer edge.

Others may disagree.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 08:59 pm:

John Regan,I owe you an appology,as I finally figured out what the real problem is.The centers on the spokes I got are not cut properly. After much manipulating,I managed to use them. The press is a real challenge ,but it will work.Glad I don't have to make a living at it though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 10:54 pm:

Jack, I believe the T-3420 Spoke drawing calls for boring the center hole after the spokes are assembled.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 11:18 pm:

I have never seen the drawing,but I figured it out,and you are right/It would greatly simplify wheel making.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, July 30, 2015 - 01:29 pm:

Allan, you have a sharp eye! That wheel had recently started creaking, but checking the spokes revealed all of them to be tight. I took a closer look at that lug and the nut was indeed a little loose, allowing that lug to work against the felloe. Tightened it up (and checked all the others), and all is well now, thank you! :-)


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