Houston we have a problem--Failure of modern replacement rear wheel bearing. Photo

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Houston we have a problem--Failure of modern replacement rear wheel bearing. Photo
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Sunday, July 26, 2015 - 10:46 pm:

Having learned that "improvements" to the Model T are not always an advantage over the original idea. Here is a picture of the "improved" replacement bearing assembly used instead of the original Hyatt. This rear axle has less than 2000 miles on it. It is seized within the rear axle housing and will require removal of the rear axle assemble to press it out from the inside. It cannot be pulled the manufacture's suggestion.

bearing failure


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Sunday, July 26, 2015 - 11:40 pm:

I have never seen needle bearings in anything that didn't run on a harden shaft, and axles are not hard enough.

That is why they do not work in ball caps, or drive shafts, that Guys have tried. The tail, and drive shafts are not hard enough.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, July 26, 2015 - 11:41 pm:

Jack
I have never been a fan of that design. At least you are in better shape than some of the "victims". I have heard of various cases where people have had the axle shaft shear off and they have lost a rear wheel at speed with this design.
Personally I have made my own version of the "3/4 floating" design for 30 years with never a problem
I wish you the best of luck getting that apart ( you might need all the luck you can get)!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, July 26, 2015 - 11:46 pm:

Herm
I have experimented with needle bearing designs with good success. It of course requires the use of a case hardened race OR getting the shaft part of the T transmission output assembly case hardened. Not the big of a problem to get done


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 12:27 am:

Needle bearings are not designed to accept the load when a vehicle is turning. They are also not designed to support the weight of a vehicle.

One f our T guys installed the needle bearing replacements and only got 500 miles before one seized,

He had to totally disassemble his rear axle and then could not get the axle shaft out of the destroyed needle bearing. It actually welded itself to the new axle shaft. He had to tear the rear axle assembly totally down then take the 1/2 housing and seized axle to a machine shop and have the shaft pressed out. The good news was his new axle shat was not ruined. He opted for the cheaper needle bearing option and after all was said and done he spent twice as much plus the down time of repairing.

I prefer the double Timken bearing sleeve assembly. This style of bearing assembly is used today on most 4 wheel drive and front wheel drive cars with incredible success. This assembly has the load capabilities that far and exceed the load and torque of a model t. This assembly evens out the load and spreads the friction area. Do it right the 1st time or go home on a trailer.

just sayin,

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 08:06 am:

An outer needle bearing on 1910 Model F Buick seized up. I figured it was from lack of lubrication. I have not repaired it yet. My guess is that it had roller bearings similar to a Model T originally. I've been thinking about what to replace it with. As a thought, I wish we could purchase the old style Hyatt Model T bearings. The "rollers", being rolled from a flat bar into a spiral, seem to give a cushion that a solid roller or a ball does not. Perhaps those solid rollers or balls do not allow the axle to "flex" (not sure that is the right word) and contribute to axle failure???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 08:14 am:

Jack...what brand and/or where did you get that bearing assembly? It's not one of those from the John W Stoltz Company in Texas is it? These are on the '13 I acquired last January. So far, they seem OK...but who knows?-- Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alby Anderson on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 08:31 am:

I would like to rebuild my differential and rear axles this winter and am trying to understand the various options.

Could someone please explain the "double Timken bearing sleeve assembly"

Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 09:40 am:

Alby
I'm curious as to what he is referring to as well. The only double timken assemblies I have seen offered are for the pinion bearing

On the recent Cochrane tour one car that was using a version of the "cartridge style" modern bearing that slides in place of the Hyatt lost a wheel on the highway. Fortunately no collision, but these type of failures are always hard on the car.
The trick is this type of bearing MUST be locked to the axle shaft. When disassembly is needed,then they are really tough to remove ( which is what this thread started about)
I like the version that requires the axle tube to be shortened about a inch, which allows the bearing retainer to be bolted to the hub


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 09:41 am:

This bearing problem is not on one of my vehicles, but belongs to a club member. It is a John Stoltz bearing replacement and to remove it the entire Ruckstell axle will have to be disassembled so that it can be pressed out.
Failure is not an option.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 10:09 am:

It seems to me that the original axle bearing setup is still the best option available. You don't need to find Hyatt bearings with no wear if you install new axles and new hardened sleeves. If you do that, a Hyatt bearing with no wear will not fit into the space allotted for it. You'll need to find good Hyatts with 4-5 thou of wear on their rollers in that case. Good solid Hyatts with that much wear are plentiful. That's how I do them, and I haven't had one fail yet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 11:49 am:

Model T Ranch sells a double Timken cartridge to replace the original Hyatt bearings. Essentially two front wheel bearing and cone assemblies mounted in a case. You have to modify the axle housing to accept it.

I prefer the original Hyatt bearings as they have given good service and no issues. You have to grease them on a regular basis of course.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 12:54 pm:

I use nothing but the original style roller bearings and have never had a problem even with the new bearings with no oil grooves. Needle bearings would certainly be a problem especially since the new axle bearing sleeves are not hardened as advertised. The original Ford sleeves were C26. The new sleeves are C18. That is too soft. I have contacted the supplier but he will not listen. We are in the process of making new sleeves that will be hardened to C40-45. We made these in the past to great success.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 01:32 pm:

I've bought a rear axle bearing cartridge at a swap meet but haven't used it yet. Maybe it's the same type?

I think the needle bearing has a bit thin needles.. I wonder how well the race fits to different worn axles?
Since I haven't seen any directions on how this part is supposed to be installed, maybe someone who has used them can tell if there's something to watch that may cause more risk for failure if overlooked?

Don't think I will use it on something that's fast anyway.. Maybe a tractor conversion.

Cartridge
Bearing side
Without the race


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Owens on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 02:24 pm:

Those style of rollers are for keeping something centered. They wont take much of a load and not for long. The roller speed is way high. The size makes them great for a retro fit. Looks good on paper but poor in the field. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Conte on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 02:40 pm:

That is why I went with the Full floating safety hubs.

They use ball bearing and needle bearings. More work but better results.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 03:15 pm:

Mike
I guess I call what you show as only 3/4 floating. It still needs the axle shaft to "stabilize" the wheel, unlike true full floating hubs like on my Ford Superduty!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 03:57 pm:

The option Mike shows is by far the best.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 04:57 pm:

Alby, I would just use the origional hyatt bearings with new sleeves and axles. There is no need to change to a different bearing.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 05:02 pm:

Glen:

Since decent Hyatt or Ford original bearings are hard to find wouldn't it make more sense to even deliberately make the sleeves a bit soft to let the sleeve wear out rather than the decent bearings when you finally find a set? OK so you have to change out the sleeves more often but the bearing is the part that is super valuable since they are not being made.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 05:04 pm:

Les, maybe you can show pictures or a sketch of your full floating design?
Sounds just like a perfect project for wherever I find a good 'n cheap lathe close to home :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 06:07 pm:

Stick with the old Hyatt bearings...there are plenty of them out there. So what if they are a bit loose...lots of miles left. Why risk this modern stuff that's unproven on a T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 06:57 pm:

Roger
I don't have a design for a full floating rear hub. When I refer to my Superduty, I mean my 2000 F 250 diesel
I run the Hyatt's in my '27, but good ones are getting hard to find and I reserve them for using inboard
The 3/4 floating hubs were used in the T era in race cars


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 07:02 pm:

Ok, misunderstood you there, Les. 3/4 floating hubs for T's should be possible to figure out and make at home too, the commercially available ones are too costly for me..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 07:18 pm:

Being a stickler for safety, details and preventive maintenance, I've been on the phone twice today with John the manufacturer of this bearing. Great guy, very knowledgeable and will bend over backwards to accommodate us T'ers. He mentioned several reasons as to what can cause problems with the bearing. Primary one is with sloppy hubs, worn key ways, and the use of shims that want to crawl up into the bearing. I have one on one side wanting to do that, and will try some options to stop it.(Probly end up getting a new hub). The other side is perfect. So far I've put 500 miles on this car since getting it last January with no problem with the bearing, and don't suspect I will as long as I stay on top of things. Guess that's why it's called preventive maintenance and why it's so important.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 08:47 pm:

Great, Tim. What are the lubrication recommendations from the manufacturer?

Grease can't enter from the regular grease cups, maybe stop screws are supposed to be placed there to hold the bearings in place?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 09:27 pm:

Roger--I was fortunate in that with this car the previous restorer had the foresight to keep the instruction sheet with a lot of other goodies with the car, passed on to me! The sheet reads thus: "MAINTENANCE: The Stoltz Life-Time bearing is packed under pressure at time of shipping. By using the T original grease cups, a small amount of grease may be added each 5,000 miles. Do not pump grease into this bearing. It will force out the grease seal and will allow inner bearing race to come out voiding warranty."

That said, or rather typed, it would seem as though very occasionally some grease could be added to it via the cups the traditional way. If you want, PM me and I can give you John's number. It's also on his website.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Andulics on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 07:19 am:

These are the hubs I made for my sprint car. Never cared for the peened over manner that the bearing was held on so I threaded the end and used a Whittet Higgins nut & washer to hold the bearing in place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 02:05 pm:

Joe
I've always had concerns about a different issue;
My experience is that you never want to control thrust on a rotating assembly in two different locations. If you look at any other rear axle assembly, the side load is handled in only one place. On the model A and V8, like on the T, it was "managed" by the axle shaft, while the weight was carried a hub roller bearing. Starting in '49, the weight and thrust was done by one bearing on a large part of the axle at the hub, and the assembly was stabilized by the axle shaft at the differential
Big trucks of course had full floating hubs, but again the axle only rotated things
Yes there were safety hubs made for race cars, but they were only designed to prevent actual wheel loss I believe.
So where I am going with this. I don't lock my bearing support in with a set screw as you have. I trust the O ring to hold the assembly in while you stop if you break a axle. My experience is that a static O ring on a surface as rough as the inside of the axle tube needs a lot of force to break it loose
Just a philosophical difference. I'm definitely not saying you are wrong!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Andulics on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 02:32 pm:

No offense taken. Always enjoy your thoughts on how things should or shouldn't work. I'm more of a "I'm pretty sure this is going to work" kind of a guy.


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